Rolling successes over that cover from... where?

[Doyce]

Hey all, I'm afraid this is a rules question more than one of my more-common 'how do you do it in your game' questions.  The question arose during a (new!) game of Sorcerer I ran last night using (essentially) the Clicking Sands setting.

Hmm... I'm going to snip the big example from the game and save it for an Actual Play post.  Here's the meat the question:

When a character in a fight has a relevant Past/Cover as well as Stamina (and also has 'Fast' to even more fully justify utilizing both in one action), you roll, say, Cover, then take any successes from that and roll them into the Stamina check.  I get all that.  

The question(s): what is the PC rolling his Cover against to earn those bonus dice that roll into Stamina?  

 - The other guy's Cover?  (I could see that if the other's guy's Cover was relevant)  
 - The other guy's stamina, if his cover isn't relevant?
 - Whatever makes sense?
 - What if the 'supporting roll' is poor and instead gleans successes for the opponent?  Might the opponent then get bonus dice instead, for out-"Cover"ing the PC, or is that just mean?  (I'm shaky on that, since that supporting roll usually isn't truly part of the combat round, considered to be part of the 'real' roll that happens after this.)

What I'm seeing is that, for most folks, there's only one roll to make in the middle of a combat round to determine intiative and results, but in the case of someone with relevant Covers + Stamina, they're probably rolling twice before getting their 'final' totals that get used for that round of combat.  That's not so much a question as a statement I'd like folks to confirm. :)

(Just went back and re-re-reread the examples of combat to make sure I didn't miss it.)

All these "but but but's" aside, we had a good time -- I got to introduce the Sorcerer rules to two new players (albeit in a truncated kind of session comprised of character generation and one scene for everyone that played through the Kicker scene and messed with the system a bit) -- everyone seemed very into their characters and spoke very favorably of finding out 'what happens next'.  Actual play report to follow.

[Lxndr]

As I understand it (though I can't find a page reference right now) you roll cover (or X, whatever X you happen to be rolling) against ITSELF in a situation like that.  And a supporting roll only gives bonuses, never penalties.

[Doyce]

Weird.  That never would have occured to me, although it makes a kind of "Humanity Check" sense.  I can't find that reference either, alas, but I find that I like it.

Hmm... let's try this example/question:

1. Guys are sneaking up on me.
2. I make a perception check that nets me two successes.
3. I have both relevant Cover and Stamina for my next action.

Would the bonus dice from my perception test roll over directly to the 'main' Stamina roll or roll to the 'supporting' Cover check (since I'm rolling that first), with only the net successes (if any) from the Cover check then rolling en masse to Stamina?

[Bankuei]

Hi Doyce,

Ron might correct me, but I've always played it that the Cover/Past is being rolled against whatever resistance the "actual" roll would be up against.  So, for example, if the resistance would be 3 dice, I'd roll Cover against that first, then rolling stat + bonuses against the 3 "for real" the second time.

Because of this, I never play it to where a "pre-roll"(as I call them) generates more resistance dice, even if it completely flubs.  Otherwise, you'll find it impossible for players to build up enough bonus dice to take on tough tasks.  ("Ug, so, you're saying I could either roll 2 dice against 10, or use my cover and probably give the opponent another 6 dice and make it 2 against 16...um, right?!?")

Chris

[Doyce]

I've always played it that the Cover/Past is being rolled against whatever resistance the "actual" roll would be up against.  

[snip] I never play it to where a "pre-roll"(as I call them) generates more resistance dice, even if it completely flubs.  

Which is basically what I did last night.

It all makes me wonder if the Perception "pre-roll" (the first one) would roll into the Cover "pre-roll" (the second one) or if each pre-roll would roll directly (and seperately) to the 'real' roll that both ultimately affect.

[Alan]

Hey Guys,

You don't need Fast to get Cover bonuses on a Stamina roll.  See sorcerer p 104.

In the pirate example on that page, the player is rolling Pirate cover to take advantage of the ship environment.  I'd say the opposed roll is not the opponent's stamina - it would be a separate roll determined by the GM based how challenging the environment was.  Alternately, if the opponent had a relevant cover (pirate, sailor), you might roll against his cover, or maybe half his cover if it isn't very relevant.

Fast

In our Charnel Gods game, Fast allowed extra actions, but we never got extra rolls as a result of it.  I suppose Fast roll itself could stand in for any roll required and the GM would choose opposing dice.  

In combat, Fast was opposed only by the opponent's Stamina - or his Fast if he had it.  So after the declarations, all Stamina and Fast rolls were made at the same time.  Initiative was determined by Fast vs. Stamina (or Fast if the opponent has it)  Victories were immediately rolled and added to Stamina.  Then the Stamina contests were resolved.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Alan nailed it - that's how it goes. Many thanks (for saving my brain cells).

Best,
Ron