metaplot footnote 2

[xiombarg]

Well, as of today I feel that someone was listening to my my rant.

I mean, the cynical part of me "knows" that the main White Wolf people aren't reading the Forge, but when the latest Vampire player's guide references "My Guy Syndrome" (albiet under a different name) and I get news that they've abolished their metaplot, I have to wonder if our ideas are finally starting to filter into the RPG "mainstream". I mean, as the "bigger" RPG manufacturers go, White Wolf seems to be the most likely to actually be capable of bringing some "Forgite" ideas to the "common gamer"...

[DannyK]

Is Geoff Grabowski a Forgeite?  Because a lot of the stuff they're doing with WoD 2.0 seem to be based on the very successful Exalted model, such a corebook and fatsplats and the lack of metaplot (but presumably lots of backstory and plothooks that can be expanded upon to move product).  

I remember a Ken Hite "Out of the Box" column where he quoted an unnamed staffer as saying that "we might as well get credit for killing it since it's dying anyway."

[xiombarg]

Is Geoff Grabowski a Forgeite?  Because a lot of the stuff they're doing with WoD 2.0 seem to be based on the very successful Exalted model, such a corebook and fatsplats and the lack of metaplot (but presumably lots of backstory and plothooks that can be expanded upon to move product).

I dunno. That's why I mentioned the "cynical" thing -- it's very possible that White Wolf is discovering some of this stuff in parallel.

Which is cool, too -- it means that it's a form of "independant confirmation" of what we're doing here if other people who are thinking about and playing RPGs come to similar conclusions.

[Matt Machell]

It should be noted that various WW people have poked their heads round here on occasion. Bruce Baugh (of Adventure fame) is the one that springs to mind...

But as to direct influence, who knows? Things filter through, and anything that makes RPGs better is bound to get an uptake.

-Matt

[xiombarg]

But as to direct influence, who knows? Things filter through, and anything that makes RPGs better is bound to get an uptake.

Amen to that. I'm not so worried about credit as pleased that some of these ideas might see some wider currency.

[eyebeams]

X and I have already had this discussion.

As a commerical RPG writer, I'll be happy to answer these questions, at least from where I stand.

1) I have never, in about four years of maitaining almost daily contact with industry writers, never once heard of any of them using any concept from the Forge for any practical purpose in their writing. I have seen people use Forge terms on very rare occasions ("Heartbreakers" for instance) as a shorthand, but I've never seen anyone use any version of Threefols Theory for any sort of design or ciritism.

In my experience, industry writers prefer critical methods that have seen extensive use in other fields and combine them with their own ideas. For example, Bruce Baugh and I have had some productive discussions about poststructuralist theory that both of us have eventually gotten around to applying to our respective work. The balance of game writers think of roleplaying as a strongly intertextual medium that doesn't lend itself to rigid, structuralist criticism. People either don't bother with a method at all, use one creative structure as a framework to hang more freewheeling elements (I've often looked at Steve Kenson's work in this light), or, or they either formally or instinctively see roleplaying as a sort of reading of culture (expressed as different genres and trends within the culture of gaming itself) whose constructed intersection creates a game's theme.

2) Geoff Grabowski has some definite ideas. I can't say what they are in this forum, but it doesn't have much to do with anything here. You;d have to corner him at a convention and ask, really.

3) As I've explained here and elsewhere, metaplot isn't really a problem for players. It's a problem for *creators.* Vampire's sales never really declined past what's expected for the general annual shrinking of the industry, but it became more and more difficult to write revelant Vampire material. This is not just a metaplot problem. It also had to do with the setting. I once sent a proposal for  Mage book that had to do with a secondary element of the setting. It was refused because it was too obscure. When I mentioned a similar book for Vampire the developer noted that Vampire was at the stage where it *had* to mine that secondary material. When a game's come to that, it's time to pull the tirgger, or else you end up with bloodline books and similar cruft.

[xiombarg]

X and I have already had this discussion.

Well, kinda. Regardless...

1) That's an argument for parallel development, then, which is good. Independent confirmation of theory is always a good thing, and it pleases me to hear that.

2) Okay...

3) I don't feel like rehashing this, we went over all the same arguments in the original thread, people can look there if they're curious -- it's off-topic for this thread. If you want to re-open the discussion as to whether metaplots are problematic or not for players in another thread, I'm willing to participate, asuming you actually have anything new to say.

I do agree that metaplot is a problem for RPG writers, so, as far as I'm concerned, that's another reason for a RPG author to reconsider metaplots.

All that said, I'm interested in any word, other than just Malcom's (whose input I appreciate, don't get me wrong), about the full reasoning behind White Wolf's decision, and whether it is entirely the reason Malcolm refers to. I don't doubt that it was a big part of it, but I have to wonder if there were other factors as well.

I do think Malcolm's comment about "mining the setting" have some interesting implications about the nature of the "supplement treadmill", and I'll start a different thread to talk about that.