Appropriate disapproval and troll-fu

[Hunter Logan]

...we've got to use our brains and be able to parse out Ron the Moderator from Ron the Contributor, or we're screwed (and, boy, so is Ron).

I disagree. My observation, Ron's behavior is much the same either way. He's a "my way or the highway" sort of guy, but this site really matters to him. It's more than just his ownership. He is acting on his vision for how he wants the site to be. The Forge was never intended to be all things to all people. So, anyone is welcome, but by design, the community is made entirely of people who participate within the site's framework. People who don't want to do that choose to leave. People who won't do that, they also leave.

To the original topic, I think it's always better for members to work things out on their own, calling for moderator intervention as a last resort. Anyway, I've seen people politely express disapproval in a thread, and that's just fine.

[Walt Freitag]

So far, I haven't seen anything to break my trust of Ron or Clinton's ability to moderate.  I do, however, feel that just as a community that we welcome new folks, help folks understand some of the common ideas or terminology here, that also, as a community, we have the ability to express disapproval.

As a community, we express disapproval (of behavior, that is, we're not speaking of opinions here) by means of moderator intervention. That's the policy. It works. I've seen plenty of bbs in which the community expresses disapproval by responding directly to the offending posts. It doesn't work. It propagates flame wars. (One side's "the community expressing disapproval" is the other side's "piling on" and more than adequate impetus for even worse behavior.)

Having to keep silent when provoked is excruciating at times. If I had a million dollars for every time I've composed a "perfect" comeback post, and not posted it because of Forge policy, I'd be rich.

Think of the mods as indoor plumbing. Their policies mean sometimes you have to hold it in, but the place sure does smell better. And it's quite remarkable the amount of shit they're willing to handle, out of sight, to make that system work. (Oh yeah, they'll love me for that one. Nice going, metaphor boy.)

- Walt

[Matt Snyder]

Hunter,

How many times has Ron as moderator said something like "My way or the highway." The answer, from my points of observation, is several times. He does that frequently. If you, as a Forge poster, do not adhere to the Forge's socially enforced rules (specifically and most often enforced by Ron),  you should hit the road OR rethink and try again (and usually it's the latter that Ron encourages).

Now, how many times has Ron as thinker or writer said something like "My way or the highway." I have never seen this happen. I have seen Ron debate rigorously with people. I have seen him come off abrasively. I have never seen him say, "You disagree with my ideas -- hit the road." To the contrary, I have seen precisely the opposite happen. When Ron disagrees with someone (or vice versa), he's usually happy to explain himself. He's usually patient. Never, in literally hundreds of such interactions I've read, have I ever seen him tell someone to hit the "highway" for any substantive disagreement.

This is a common sense distinction. Describing Ron with aphorisms like "My way or the highway" diminshes both his ability and role to moderate and to participate here. It clouds the precise reason we need to trust Ron to particpate here ourselves.

Once again, there is a profound difference in Ron policing someone for how they say something and Ron policing with someone with what they're saying. Ron does not bar people from saying useful or interesting things, even when he disagrees, so long as they're not being abusive or ignorning the forum's rules.


P.S. I think it's pretty fair to read any and all of my posts with Clinton interchangable with where I've said Ron's name. I emphasized Ron's role because he's the main content moderator, and because the topic is obviously inspired by Ron's activity in another thread.

[Hunter Logan]

Matt,

I acknowledge your intent, but our mileage varies more than you probably know. BTW: Your apparent thesis is incorrect. As I read it, we must accept that Ron behaves differently depending on which hat he wears in order to trust him. This is wrong. I think we can trust him because we think/know that he does his best to act in good faith with respect to whatever it is we're talking about. To that end, nothing I say will impact on Ron's ability to do anything. And if Ron has a problem with anything I've said, you can bet a testicle he'll let me know. So, that is really all I can say about this topic. I suspect you won't be satisfied, but it will have to be enough.

[Bankuei]

Hi Walt,

Excellent point, I stand corrected.  I'll go practice meditation or something and calm down my frustration factor elsewhere.

Chris

[Shreyas Sampat]

To respond directly to the original post:

I tend to believe that the vast majority of people here are sincerely trying to post productively. Sometimes people get a little ahead of themselves and post more emotionally than maybe they intended to. I've found that a gently worded PM that simply calls attention to what could be a problematic post will get the poster to clarify.

The whole idea here is to indicate that you're out to help (which you are), not to reprimand or to punish.

[Roy]

I've disagreed wtih Ron quite vocally a time or two, but he's never attacked me.  In fact, he's stuck up for my right to have my own opinion even though it was in opposition to his opinion.  THAT is why Ron can and should be trusted.

The perceived "problem" lies in the fact that the Forge really is different.  It takes people a little while to realize that an attack on your opinion is not the same as a personal attack.  And you will have your opinions attacked, in much the same way as Greek philosophers attacked their peers' opinions during debates.  It's not personal; it's a style of discourse that results in serious and often fruitful discussions.

The Forge is not a place just to post for the sake of posting.  You'd better have something valuable to say or you'll be called on it.  That's why I lurk so often -- I'm learning.  Thank you all.

Roy