Ordering actions in Extended Contests

[NickHollingsworth]

In the Mythic Russia thread http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10990 Mark Galeotti suggested that

initiative in an extended [contest should go] to the highest bidder, to encourage high bids and outrageous manouvres.

Invain commented that

this rule might be awkward to implement in play. I would have to have everyone declare their action at the start of the round, not knowing what the other characters are doing, and then execute in bid order.

I suggested that there should be no statements of intent at all. IMO they are  an out of character book-keeping action that disrupts the flow of the game.

Instead:

1. Use a simple approach to decide who goes first (round the table, most AP or even GM dictates would be all fine) but

2. Provide a way that players and named npcs can interupt actions with their own for a cost. The cost might be an actual cost, extra risk or whatever and its design aim would be to allow interuption to happen but make it cost enough that its not overused.

This leaves the issue of what this Default Order Rule and Interuption Rule might be - which is the topic for this thread.

[soru]

How about allowing a simple contest to override the default order in the few times it matters significantly?

For example, the last broo of the band that attacked the PCs is limping away wounded. Two warriors compete for the honour of dealing the killing blow. Broo is on 4AP, all warriors have much more than that, as well as a skill advantage and multiple attacker bonuses.

By default, Bill the storm bull gets to act first, as he is sitting to the left.  Joe the Orlanthi wants to override that, so rolls a simple contest of his movement affinity versus the 'insane berserker killing frenzy' of the storm bull.

Narrator rules both abilities equally applicable for determinging initiative (movement gets him there fast, 'ibkf' means he attacks hastily without considering the consequences), so they roll with no modifiers and the winner gets first shot at killing off the broo.

soru

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

I'd recommend that there be a phase of discussion regarding intent, that allows folks to freely revise their intents until everyone at the table is happy with the potential results.  Trollbabe uses this, and it works astoundingly well.

Another option, for the more random inclined folks out there, would be to order actions in the rank of highest roll(on die) to lowest.  This creates that sort of chaos to which you don't know who might get their action off first.

Chris

[lightcastle]

I like the idea of just having people discuss intent, I think that's great, but do you just discuss eventual order of action, or do you have something else to determine that?

[Bankuei]

Hi lc,

Well, regardless of what form of determining order you use(left to right around the table, highest bids, highest trait being used, highest roll on dice, etc.), it becomes very important to have a clear idea of what folks are trying to do, especially when we're dealing with modifiers and augments in HQ.

While determining order first, then going about intent is one way to do things, it has a couple of quirks that don't always work with folks.  First, if intent is declared, and resolved immediately, the person who goes first has "initiative" to speak.  If the intents aren't resolved until everyone has declared, then the last person has the best chance of choosing a good action.

On the other hand, if intent is declared, and freely modified, you tend to get stuff that is more dramatically appropriate, which tends to fit some styles of HQ play.  This gives players a lot more "give" to work with and requires a little bit of trust on everyone's part.  

My personal approach is to discuss the intent, then everyone rolls based on that, and depending on the outcomes, I (the narrator) order it in such a fashion that makes sense.  So, the person with a Complete Victory has succeeded in their action at the very best possible time, whether that needed to be before or after another event, while a Complete Failure could indicate the opposite.

Chris

[lightcastle]

Hmm, interesting. I think I'll have to figure out what I like in play. I like everyone hashing out intent, but I'm not sure I would just figure out order in response. I guess I'll see as it goes.

[NickHollingsworth]

Just to be ultra picky:

soru: the last broo of the band that attacked the PCs is limping away wounded. Two warriors compete for the honour of dealing the killing blow... so they roll with no modifiers and the winner gets first shot at killing off the broo.

If the broo is just limping off wounded there is little point in having anyone actually roll to kill it. So have the two Storm Bullies roll vs each other and you narrate (or have the player narrate) how the winner beats the other to the prize.

The contest seems to be about the pecking order of the two PCs. The survival or otherwise of the broo seems peripheral. Here are a few suggested outcomes:

Complete Victory:
* Gash runs headlong at the creature casting aside any fear for his safety, desperate as he is to beat Gore to the prize. But his reckless advance is stopped short when without turning the creature fells him with powerful hoof kick between the legs. Some time later when he is able to see again he finds the servants joking at his expense while the merchants thank Gore profusely for his brave defense of the caravan. [The outcome being that the people of the Caravan consider themselves in debt of Gore the trustworthy warrior, but consider Gash as a hothead also-ran who they wont risk relying on. Because its a Complete victory this is a 'permanent' effect].  

Major Victory:
* as above but the effect is not permanent and is an injury worth -50% to whatever the GM decides to apply it to.

Minor Victory:
* Gash outruns Gore only to run straight onto the horns of the wounded broo and be thrown to one side. Gore, who is right behind him throws his axe which sends the vile beast to Theds dark halls. The merchants are full of thanks to both the warriors. Though neither warrior says anything to the other both know that if Gore had fallen further behind his comrade he would not have been in time to save him. Gash has plenty of time to mull this over nursing his ribs which ache in time with the rolling gait of his rhino. [The outcome, if there is one at all, being bruising and pains that only lasts 'a week' or something of that order and is only worth a -10%]

Marginal Victory:
* Gash beats Gore to the enemy only to have Gores axe sprout from the creatures chest before his own sword tastes blood. The merchants praise both equally and dont seem to notice Gore's slight smile or Gash's sullen frowns. [The effect, if an, is perhaps a hurt worth -1 to Gash to any competative behaviour between the two for a day or so].

Tie:
* In their frenzy to reach the wounded creature Gash and Gore push and shove, trip each other, bite, curse and do everything except run each other through. Overtaking the stricken creature they both fall on him and such is the frenzy they have worked themselves up to that neither will hold his blow till there is nothing left of their foe but a wide circle of bloodstained ground in which remains no piece of the broos flesh large than a fingernail.
* In their frenzy to take all the glory they push and shove, trip each other bite and curse, until both lie exausted and bleeding on the grass and realise that there is no longer any sign of their foe who has made good his escape with many vile promises to his dark goddess Thed in gleeful gratitute for his good fortune.

Note that the alternate narration of the ties describes two different outcomes for the supposed task (killig the broo) even though the outcome for the actual contest of interest (which PC gets the glory) is the same.

Note also that the nature of the longterm effect could take a lot of different forms. Perhaps it would be an interetsting approach to allow more player input in terms of specifying the benefit of victory and more GM fait when dictating the penalty of failure?

Finally - If the survival of the broo is of interest to (say) the GM (perhaps because it can summon some mates for a return match and the GM would prefer the dice to decide this for him) but the PCs are more interested in who gains or looses face then perhaps a threeway contest count be run. The two Storm Bulls roll as above and the Broo gets a roll to escape. If it beats both the Storm Bulls it gets away, otherwise it dies. But the resolution of the interPC contest takes the narrative centre stage as before.