What do gamers need?

[Loki]

The older I get, the less time I have to game, so what I really need is brief and pithy applications of a given system to a genre or historical setting.

An example of a book that fit the bill was the BESM supplement "Hot Rods & Gun Bunnies". I wanted to run a game within that genre, and although the rules support lots of tinkering to create cars and guns of all kinds of varieties, I didn't have the time to spare to do it justice. HR&GB provided me with a list of applications of the rules to simulate the important genre elements, and suggestions for running car chases, gun fights, etc.

Currently I would like to run a one-shot of TROS set in Japan during the warring clans era (a knock-off of Kurasawa's Seven Samurai). I would pay $$ for a short pdf that had statistics for weapons, firearms, armor and other rules applications and changes to support the historical era.

What I don't need are supplements that are mostly general information (ie a synopsis of the period, a survey of the genre), or settings that are more than 10-20% flavor. I read fantasy, science-fiction and history, so I can do the research myself. Give me a supplement on running a samurai game, but let me look up details on the difference between a katana and a wazakashi (sp?).

[Matt Snyder]

No need to get hung up on "Need," Christopher. It's really quite simple:

Think demand, as in supply and demand, with one qualifier. The qualifier is -- what demand can publishers supply that also promotes actual play?

That's it. It's really a question that says, "What do gamers want, what will they clamor for . . . and then actually friggin' use?" It's not something they will wear, collect, tinker with, or read on the crapper, but rather something they'll actually buy and use in their actual play.

And to clarify, I'm not asking for my sake. Sure, if I see something I can supply, I'll go for it. I ask it for the sake of publishers, and indie publishers especially, in general. We're woefully ill-equipped at marketing actual product, as this thread reminds me. (Unfortunately, I think the non-indie publishers are, too.)

[quozl]

What kind of supplements are most poplular now?

[Christopher Weeks]

Gamers also need games that are written with their favorite movie, TV, or book license.  Of course, a system that supports play that is like that source is needed.  I think that none of the three incarnations of Star Wars, to pick a visible example, really achieved that, though West End's first edition was probably the best.

Chris

[Keith Senkowski]

One thing I always wanted when I first started gaming was a step-by-step process on how to run a game in a certain style with examples.  It is real easy to tell me that I need to create terror with the players when I run Ravenloft but it doesn't really give me a guide.  A sort of manual on how to run different genres (space opera, gothic horror, etc) with blow by blow examples I think would be immensely valuable to GMs of all skill levels.  Conversly a similar work on playing in those genres (as players) would also be something useful.

Keith

[John Kim]

James Kittock did an online survey in 2001 which had 524 respondents, and published results entitled "d20 System Product Interest Market Research Report".  Unfortunately, it is no longer available publically by his choice.  He quoted the following:

The first rating question asked of the respondents was:

"Overall, how interested are you, yourself, in purchasing the following categories of d20 System accessories for use with the Dungeons & Dragons game?"

The results are summarized in the following table (the category descriptions are shown exactly as the appeared on the survey).

Sourcebooks, including monsters, magic items, character classes, etc -- 79%
Campaign setting materials, including gazetteers, maps, etc. -- 49%
Adventure scenarios, including self-contained modules, campaigns, etc. -- 46%

There was also more detailed breakdowns of the interest in sourcebooks and in scenarios, which I thought was interesting.  I may post some snippets of these on the principle of "fair use".  Overall, interest in sourcebooks was most in PC options and magic (spells and items).  Interest in adventures had a heavy emphasis on scale maps, player handouts, and other ready-to-use stuff.  

One should also check out the 1999 Wizards of the Coast survey.  
http://www.thegpa.org/wotc_demo.shtml

[madelf]

And if they can be induced to become a DM/GM, expenditures skyrocket.
Will DM/GM: $2,048
Will not DM/GM: $401

I find this entry rather fascinating.
Almost all discussion of trageted marketing for maximum sales that I've come across recommends creating material for players, as GMs are a much smaller cross-section of the total market. But it looks like, even so, selling to the GMs may be where the money's at.

[xiombarg]

Almost all discussion of trageted marketing for maximum sales that I've come across recommends creating material for players, as GMs are a much smaller cross-section of the total market. But it looks like, even so, selling to the GMs may be where the money's at.

Well, that makes sense. GMs will buy GM materials and player materials, while players will buy only player materials that interest them.

Of course, that could still be an argument to target players -- the GMs will buy those books anyway.

[Bankuei]

Hi folks,

It's also very important to be aware that the polls conducted regarding D&D and D20 games may not fully cross over into other games.  As I was saying previously, different games are going to produce different requirements as far as the 5 elements go.  

If you look at games such as D20, White Wolf, or Palladium, their games are built on the "Magic the Gathering" sort of set up; in order to get new rules(classes, feats, etc.), you need to buy more product.   Part of these games too, is based on the idea of a setting canon, sometmes with metaplot, sometimes not, so naturally that's also wrapped up in the sorts of supplements people will ask for.

On the other hand, we have games such as Story Engine, BESM, Inspectres, Heroquest, or Dust Devils, either they give you a nice neat and complete system in and of itself, or a set of tools which you can build anything into your system without much work.  These games are going ot have entirely different sorts of supplement needs, which are mostly in Setting, Situation, Character, and Color.  

Finally, since most game texts have left out major parts about actual gameplay, social contract, etc, we have supplements spring up such as Robin's Laws etc.  

The demands of a particular game, are going to differ based on the focus of play and the design.  In some cases supplements are already considered part of the initial design(such as splatbooks, metaplot modules, or setting books for GURPS, etc.).  In other cases they may be deisgned to fill in holes in designs(such as many of the gamemastering books out there).

When you look at it this way, you can see that there is no single answer.  It's rather like asking what kind of software you should install on your computer, to which the answer is,  it depends on your needs.

Chris

[semprebon]

The older I get, the less time I have to game, so what I really need is brief and pithy applications of a given system to a genre or historical setting.

In this vien, I think the idea of "Plot Point" books that Pinnacle is putting out for their Savage Worlds game are very good. For those unfamiiar with the idea, they give you everything you would need to run a multi-session campiagn in a particular setting in a single book. The book is well organized, with a players section (which you can buy separately), background material, a whole slew of adventures and events(some just a few lines of suggestion, others a bit more indepth). Most of the stuff is organized by location, so you only have to read up on where the players are or will be soon.

Unfortunately, they have only produced one setting of this type so far (50 Fathoms).

[Storn]

The older I get, the less time I have to game, so what I really need is brief and pithy applications of a given system to a genre or historical setting.

In this vien, I think the idea of "Plot Point" books that Pinnacle is putting out for their Savage Worlds game are very good. For those unfamiiar with the idea, they give you everything you would need to run a multi-session campiagn in a particular setting in a single book. The book is well organized, with a players section (which you can buy separately), background material, a whole slew of adventures and events(some just a few lines of suggestion, others a bit more indepth). Most of the stuff is organized by location, so you only have to read up on where the players are or will be soon.

Unfortunately, they have only produced one setting of this type so far (50 Fathoms).

Two.  Evernight and 50 Fathoms.  

I really like 50 Fathoms, and even thought I'm not running it at all... I was doing sea adventures in my fantasy game, using Pinnacle's rule set, Savage Worlds.  I bought it because there were about 20 ideas for an evenings adventure set on ships or ports and I was blanking.

Having bought it and read it, it holds up even better than Ithought.  While I will never run this world, its a great idea.  I would happily play in that world.

Yet, the crunchy bits of having Iron Men, Wooden ships..combat rules, cannons, different types of shot, stats for boats, and most important, how far one can sail in different seas, weather etc.... was immediately used by me in my own campaign.

I do not own Evernight.  But I have read it.  It is also a great little world seed idea and reading the threads over on PEG boards has really been fun watching several groups go thru the same adventure arc and the differences & similarities they have.

Now.  This doesn't say much out of context for this thread.  I'm a very picky buyer.  I get tons of RPG stuff free, because my art appears in it... which is how I got Savage Worlds in the first place.. thank the stars... it is my FAVORITE game system I've found in 20+ years of roleplaying.  

So to say that I bought 50 Fathoms is remarkable.  It wasn't cheap.  But it was worth it.  It was easy to read.  And I got a lot out of it.

These Plot Point books are going to be hit or miss though to each individual buyer.  Even though I run a fantasy game, Evernight is not quite useful enough.  The upcoming Sundered Skies?  I probably will get, because it has flying ships and castles... and element that I already have in my own fantasy world.

Quality always helps.  I don't care for d20, but my friend picked up Chris Ayolott's Dynasties and Demagogues... which is just a FANTASTIC book for political intrigue type campaigns.  The Quality oozes out of this book (except for the art, great public domain stuff, but too little art)... SO much so, that this book can be used for any Star Empire (Star Wars, Dune, Forgotten Sons, Metabarons) sci-fi as well as many fantasy campaigns.

[talysman]

The older I get, the less time I have to game, so what I really need is brief and pithy applications of a given system to a genre or historical setting.

[ ... ]

What I don't need are supplements that are mostly general information (ie a synopsis of the period, a survey of the genre), or settings that are more than 10-20% flavor. I read fantasy, science-fiction and history, so I can do the research myself. Give me a supplement on running a samurai game, but let me look up details on the difference between a katana and a wazakashi (sp?).

I think this is the most important post in the thread.

Mike Mearls said in the other thread that gamers don't want setting (or, at least, that setting books are not doing well,) but I think that's because setting books are pretty lightweight in terms of content right now. I think setting materials are highly desirable, especially setting materials aimed at players; Robin Laws made a comment about this in his Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering.

The more the players know and feel about their imaginary world, the better. Do this even when a setting tells you not to. It's easier to get people to distinguish between player knowledge and character knowledge than it is to get them emotionally invested in an imaginary world.

I think this is why the World of Darkness has done so well: because the setting is the "real" world or a well-known historical setting with vampires and the like mixed in, which means that you can use easily-accessible novels and movies as a tool for emotional investment. it's also why licensed materials like Buffy, Star Trek and the like do reasonably well: players can grasp the concept easily.

I think gamers would like to see more step-by-step examples of how to play within a narrow setting and more focused locales (the setting splats people have been talking about here) with maps and illustrations, and a run-down of major NPCs and what they *want* (as opposed to a pre-defined timeline of what they *do*.

the Plot Point books certainly sound like an intriguing approach to this need. and I have my own ideas of what I would like to do in this regard as well.

[semprebon]

Two.  Evernight and 50 Fathoms.

Actually, I intentionally left out Evernight, as it is not a "Plot Point" book, but a scripted campign (I think that's what they called it) the idea of which frankly didn't appeal to me at all. Basically, it seemed to me to be a long railroad ride - perhaps with some nice scenery, but with very liitle input from the payers as to the direction things go. I didn't like some of their short PDF adventures for the same reason.

[Valamir]

Two.  Evernight and 50 Fathoms.

Actually, I intentionally left out Evernight, as it is not a "Plot Point" book, but a scripted campign (I think that's what they called it) the idea of which frankly didn't appeal to me at all. Basically, it seemed to me to be a long railroad ride - perhaps with some nice scenery, but with very liitle input from the payers as to the direction things go. I didn't like some of their short PDF adventures for the same reason.

Very long and very railroaded.

But fun as long as you inform the players in advance that they are riding a train and each stop along the way is basically an excuse for a set piece minis battle.

I actually like Evernight for how upfront it is about being a linear scripted campaign.  Even the GM advice to use various "illusionist" tactics to hide the tracks from the players are so obvious as to really be asking for participationism than illusionism.  But its perfect for people who want a dungeon hack with an OK story (although I don't particularly care for the wierdo buggy badguy things) with zero GM prep beyond staying 1 chapter ahead in the book and having the appropriate paper minis assembled.

As an example of what gamers need I think it fills a pretty valid and seemingly highly embraced niche.  There seem to be alot of groups who've played all the way to the end in 6 or 7 or 10 sessions.  That's a lot of play with little effort and only 2 books needed.  For folks who get their kicks from combat and who are willing to follow whatever leads and hooks the GM throws as long as it leads them to another cool encounter...its pretty much a perfect design.

[Tav_Behemoth]

One of the original points (Mike's I think) that I found important was that there are a glut of d20 releases that do the things that most DMs are already good at, precisely for the reason that these products are written by DMs who are trying to make some money using the things they know how to do!


To be successful, a supplement has to do something that a DM can't easily do by themselves. Fortunately, no one can create rich and surprising detail in every possible area, so to be sure you hook them, cover as many of those areas in Product X:

- historical / ecological / cultural / other real-world-inspired detail for DMs who aren't good at doing research and extracting its juicy bits
- character traits, motivations, and shticks for DMs who aren't good at improvisational acting and melodrama on the fly
- illustrations, maps, and other visual aids and handouts for DMs who can't draw (aka think visually & give players concrete vivid descriptions) to save their lives
- custom freeware utilities for DMs who don't know how to find the wealth of stuff on the Web and lack the skill to reprogram it for their own needs. (See http://www.behemoth3.com/vorpal/ for my own projects in this area).

Having supplemental material that's useful for players as well as DMs (or that helps break down the distinctions between collaborators in the roleplaying experience) is certainly a plus. Even more important is marketing, advertising, and cover copy that *tells players why* this book is also for them, regardless of the extent to which this is actually true.

DMs also need clear, simple, & direct marketing hooks that they can use to get players interested in the supplement: here's why using this book is going to make this game more fun for everyone.