Dice Chucker- A new system begging for criticism

[oversoul01]

Greetings!
My name is Bobby Wallen.  I have been following the forums here for awhile but this is my first post.  I love creating games!  I have created several and have started many more...but have backburned alot of them.  My foremost interest has got to be short all purpose systems.   I will get straight to the point, I have created a new system and it is still in its infancy and I was hoping to get some yal to look at or perhaps give it a playtest to see what you think.
The system is called Dice Chucker and teh basic rundown is this: Character are represented by dice pools(d6s), that represent all resources, talent stamina, etc all wrapped up into one average number.  When characters are weakened in someway they lose dice from this pool, no dice means death.  Characters also have Attributes which are individual skills and talents from 1 up.  When a character uses a specific talent they roll their entire remaining dice pool, and keep a number of dice equal to the attribute being used.  A character has a pool of 4 and a attribute at 3.  He or she rolls all 4 dice in the pool but can only keep 3.  The dice kept are then totalled and compared to a target number.  The higher over the TN the better the action succeeds.
Its a pretty basic system...but I added a twist that I hope will be the hook for players to intrest them in these rules.  The twist is Power dice.  Power dice is an optional rule I included the system can be used as described above but Power dice are more fun.  With power dice certain color dice do diffrent things to change the rules.  For example if you have a red die in your pool, you can opt to reroll that die and use the new results.  A blue die is open ended.  The normal un-powered color in Dice Chucker is white and does nothing special.  Power dice can be mixed into the pools and give the game a little more strategy than the basic rules.  Players can win power dice for their pools with advancement, but can also lose them randomly with injuries.  They can try for all of one color or mix and match.  Some of teh power dice are bad, deducting from totals or even "eating" other power dice the character may have!
Thats it in a nutshell, I have uploaded the rules at rpghoard.com(You can find it either in the new files or systems sections)I would love to get some feedback from such a great group of fellow designers.  Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Bobby

[smokewolf]

The question I have for you (and mind you I have not read the system, only going off of your description) is what makes this system any different than the Storyteller System from White Wolf or Shadowrun or the D6 system from WEG?

It sounds like the same stuff. You have a dice pool. Roll the dice pool versus a difficulty number. When you are damaged, the pool lessens. etc. WEG even had the Wild Die concept of using a different colored dice.

Also what kinda game is this used for? Realistic? Fantasy? Off the cuff? Entertaining? I find that these systems are ok for story type of games, but hinder action/realism games due to their poor modeling of physics, damage, etc.

BTW, I am not trying to be mean, only curious, I enjoy discussing mechanics.

[oversoul01]

No offense taken I wanted to spark conversation.  Ok first I am familiar with the WW system but am not familiar with WEG the only d6 system I have had contact with is the silouette system from dp9.  So bare in mind that is what I am using to frame my response.  With ST system from WW each stat and skill is represented by dice. Appropriate stat and skill are combined to form a pool and are rolled against a TN and any dice that roll over that are considered 1 success each.  I do not know how the other systems you mentioned work so cannot comment on them.  The Dice Chucker system.  Has 1 pool used for all rolls If your pool is 4d6 tehn you roll 4d6 for everything, combat, magic etc.  Then you have your Attributes, which are skills and talents that yout char. excels at.  Each attribute has a number value assigned to it that cannot be higher than your pool.  In the example I gave(4d6) no attibute can be higher than 4.  So a warrior might have an attributes like sword fighting 4 archery 2, etc.
When you roll, say you are attacking with a bow.  To hit the player rolls his or her pool(4d6).  Lets say the roll is a 1,3,4, and 6.  This character is not as good with a bow as a sword.  The archery attribute will ony allow the character to keep 2 dice.  So the player decides to keep the 4 and the 6.  You add those together(10) and compare that to the TN(the TN is normally 6 and is so in this example).  So the player would have a +4 over the TN, not to bad.
If the character was using a sword and the sword fighting Attribute he or she would have rolled and would have been able to keep all for dice.  Using the above example again that would have made for a total 14.  Which is +8 over TN...a much better result would have occurred.
Power dice change that up alot, be able to reroll some dice and what not can really change the affect of diffrent actions.  It also adds another level of involvement on the players part.  "Hmmm since I am a mage do I want all purple dice..but I am pretty weak so some green for healing rolls would be nice." or " Do I attack the dragon, and run the risk of losing one or more of my blue dice becuase of damage?"
The game can be used for anything so long as players and GM handle it appropriately for the story.  However I would have to say it was always in the back of mind for a lighter more entertaining type of one friday night game.  I would love to hear otherwise though from people trying it out.  I do think that the system could be put into any story and function just fine.  It is a playtest version and is goign to be tweaked to make it more adaptable and user friendly.
I hope that helps any further questions or comments are welcomed!
Bobby

[smokewolf]

What do these dice pools represent?

In WW your strength dice represent the amount of physical strength the character possesses. It correlates to how damage they do, how much they can lift, etc.

[oversoul01]

In the shortest answer everything.  Its a big abstract thing.  If you take everything that makes a character innate abilites.  Their speed, strength, brains, stamina, everything and give it all a dice value and then average all that together to get 1 value that is what the dice pool(I call it a Character Pool in the game) represents.  It is the purest simplest omni-stat.  It is a character's natural potential in general.  The character's specialties are made up in attributes.  The attributes are how well the character is able to utilize that potential.
Bobby
oversoul_games@hotmail.com

[DevP]

To get it out of the way: your text could use some better formatting, *slightly* more direct writing (less jokeyness in text?), and slightly tighter style. I mean, no big deal - I'm not a somber humorless grunk - but formatting and editing have eerily power effects in convincing Joe Gamer that your thing is worth reading. (Have a pro do formatting on a one-shot published scenario did wonders, frex.)

So the CP is roughly the character's "level". or larger-than-life-ness. Bigger pools (more epic characters) will end up better in most challenges, but Attributes (how many die you keep) have a much bigger impact, as they should. That's quite intuitive, and promising. (Similar in some ways, but not all, to The Pool, which is worth seeing for kicks anyway.)

A thought on combat initiative: some games have folks roll their die/pool, and have the roll count for initiative as well as the actual maneuver. Sorcerer has a scheme that could work, for example, but just bounce that thought around as you like.

You should be aware that the difference between Attribute levels is a Big Deal. That is, when you're totalling a 2d6, odds are you are going to hit higher than 6 - that is, odds are that you will ALWAYS be beating the 1d6 guy, no matter what. The system isn't very grainy this way, but then again having different attributes matter also makes this clearer (rather than comparing more minute fractions). I'm just saying, mechanically, be aware that opponents of differing Attribute levels can really hardly compete. (Or so it seems; what did playtesting show?)

You write a lot throughout the text about getting rid of un-necessary bits, and yet you frontload the document with stuff about optional combat rules, equipment, NPCs, and very surprisingly weapon ranges. Wha??? I mean, certainly, include these (even expand more if you want, giving folks a kickstart on cooking their own parts up), but you're detracting from the Cool Thing: POWER dice!

I mean, this is the cool, and this shouldn't be relegated to a "optional rule". I mean, let the players figure out if they want it in the game (or say something like "GMs should decide what kind of power dice, if any, to put into the game".) On one hand, getting actually colored dice seems difficult (although coloring your own is practical), and not all of the different color powers "clicked" with me. But then again, the idea kernel was cool enough to see the potential depth of play, and even inspired me to try making my own power dice. THIS IS THE COOL THING, I say it again.

I feel (very intuitively, fuzzily) that power dice come out best when they encapsulate (a) some sort of dice trick (like black dice killing pairs), and (b) encasing some sort of nonspecific game effect that still impacts the character. So, I think having green(healing) and purple(magic) dice isn't *that* great, since I have other means of measuring my magic-user's powers. But maybe a purple die that does (effect X) when I'm rolling with the help of other players (or playing with in-game relationships). And maybe a yellow die that comes into play (with some powerful but highly variable effect Y) in situations that are fundamentally risky gambles.

While we're at it: why make Flaws just give more attributes? You've got your power dice, especially those black ones, so maybe those Flaws can pay for themselves. How about:
* if you get pairs (black dice powers can come into affect), AND either the player or GM can explan how the Flaw comes into play, then that bad effect (cancelling of die) comes into play.
* there's that off chance during advancement that (through some roll) the black dice are additionally converted into better Power dice. So your black dice are an investment in future power at the expense of your current status.

What do you think?

[oversoul01]

Wow! Ok off the bat thanks! You took a lot of time to write your post and I really appreciate that, I especially appreciate it when intelligent and considerate people are doing it.  Too many time when doing anything on the internet you get rude people who would sooner just say something awful just for the fun of it.
Ok formatting, I am as you can tell rather lax with my english skills.  I also cannot afford to hire an editor/formatter. So I will have to really on myself...I will look at it as an opportunity to improve my skills.  DO you have any other suggestions on the subject?

---A thought on combat initiative: some games have folks roll their die/pool, and have the roll count for initiative as well as the actual maneuver. Sorcerer has a scheme that could work, for example, but just bounce that thought around as you like.----

Intiative is always a touchy subject I have noticed in gaming.  Some games look at it as apart of a character's natural abilities.  Other's use an absolute abstraction that has no basis on the character or his/her abilities.  I will consider some alternatives but I am rather fond of this one.

----You should be aware that the difference between Attribute levels is a Big Deal. That is, when you're totalling a 2d6, odds are you are going to hit higher than 6 - that is, odds are that you will ALWAYS be beating the 1d6 guy, no matter what. The system isn't very grainy this way, but then again having different attributes matter also makes this clearer (rather than comparing more minute fractions). I'm just saying, mechanically, be aware that opponents of differing Attribute levels can really hardly compete. (Or so it seems; what did playtesting show?)----

Attributes levels...I was intending for them to be "diffrent" I feel that someone who has more training in an area will on average always do better than someone with less training, but there is always luck, and there enter Power Dice.

----You write a lot throughout the text about getting rid of un-necessary bits, and yet you frontload the document with stuff about optional combat rules, equipment, NPCs, and very surprisingly weapon ranges. Wha??? I mean, certainly, include these (even expand more if you want, giving folks a kickstart on cooking their own parts up), but you're detracting from the Cool Thing: POWER dice!----

A kick start is what I was going for.  My reasoning is simple.  I am trying to find a line to walk.  I feel that a simple game should be that.. simple.  Here is the problem when is it too simple? and when is too much?  That was what my target was I will definately have to continue tweaking and fine tuning that area.  My ranges admittedly are probly way off as most are complete guesswork.  

-----I mean, this is the cool, and this shouldn't be relegated to a "optional rule". I mean, let the players figure out if they want it in the game (or say something like "GMs should decide what kind of power dice, if any, to put into the game".) On one hand, getting actually colored dice seems difficult (although coloring your own is practical), and not all of the different color powers "clicked" with me. But then again, the idea kernel was cool enough to see the potential depth of play, and even inspired me to try making my own power dice. THIS IS THE COOL THING, I say it again. ----

Power Dice, power dice are my materpiece and is what I am most proud of  in this work.  I seriously considered making it a standard rule, but I let fear of reject reduce it to an "optional" rule.  But with your comments I think I will return it to its main rule status.  I am still tweak the dice effects and am currently considered changing the black die'e effect, I have found it difficult yto come up with reasonable effects for the dice.  Do you have any specific ideas concerning it?

----While we're at it: why make Flaws just give more attributes? You've got your power dice, especially those black ones, so maybe those Flaws can pay for themselves. How about:
* if you get pairs (black dice powers can come into affect), AND either the player or GM can explan how the Flaw comes into play, then that bad effect (cancelling of die) comes into play.
* there's that off chance during advancement that (through some roll) the black dice are additionally converted into better Power dice. So your black dice are an investment in future power at the expense of your current status. -----

You have given my a lot to think on including the idea of using Flaws to purchase Power Dice and lots of other things too!.  I must admit that I have not playtested the rules myself.  I am planning a game but organization and timing is difficult when everyone has real adult lives.  I published the playtest version to help with that, I was hoping to get some responses to this post as well as hear from email from people trying it out.  Then compile that with my own tests and come up with my revision.  Looking at this post it might come across as defending my work, I am really glad you posted, it put a lot of things into prospective and brought up many points I looked over or neglected, I hope to continue this dicussion with you and anyone else that wants to chime in!
Thanks
Bobby

[ethan_greer]

Yeah, I agree with Dev - Get those Power Dice out in front. They jump up and down and say, "hey! This game is different and worth looking at!" Make them work for you.

Regarding suggestions for editing, I'd drop a line over at the Connections forum. You don't have money, so you'll need to offer something you can give - the easiest example I can think of would be a free copy of the game when it's published along with the contributer's name in it somewhere.

Also, check out this article for some useful hints about publishing on the cheap.

You've made some comments in your posts that give me the idea that you're trying too hard to make this game appeal to "the market," whatever the market might be. I say, don't worry about that so much. Write the game you want to play, the game that gets you excited and pumped up. That enthusiasm will come through in your text and do more to sell the game than trying to make it please everyone.

[oversoul01]

I will definately head over and drop a line, as far as offering the most I can offer is "name in lights".  The game will be completely free and is up for grabs at rpghoard.  The finished version will be there as well.  I do intend on publishing other work just not this one.  This is the first rpg I have whole heartedly told myself " Now Bobby no dreams of grandeur this is for free"
As far as formatting goes, I kinda like the jokeyness of it I was wondering what everyone thought was bad about it?  Is it just too much of it? I have about a thousand questions? But I should organize my thoughts and tackle them 1 at a time so as not drive yall insane.
I will say i am glad that I and this game has been overal so well rceived and that yall like it and can see what my aim was with it!
Bobby

[ethan_greer]

The game will be completely free and is up for grabs at rpghoard.  The finished version will be there as well.  I do intend on publishing other work just not this one.  This is the first rpg I have whole heartedly told myself " Now Bobby no dreams of grandeur this is for free"

First of all, if it's on RPGHoard it's already published. To say you're not publishing Dice Chucker is a fallacy.

Second, why offer for free what people will be happy to pay five bucks for at RPGNow? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Just some food for thought.

[oversoul01]

$5 I had thought about it and I do intend on using rpgnow for sales of stuff.  My question is would you really pay $5 US for Dice Chucker?  This is always a tricky part.  Gamers are notoriously poor and therefore if they are intelligent budget their spending.  When someone is thinking about buying my game what are they thinking bout exactly?  Page count... 9 pages the finished version might reach 10 or 11.  I know page count should be second to content but it ain't always so. Now content, in your opinion do you think the concept is worth $5..and I am really curious on that.  Would those people who have read it adn taken the time to respond to this thread, would you pay $5 for this game?  
Marketing is almost always guesswork, in my opinion.  What do yall think?
Bobby

[ethan_greer]

Ah, what's a fair price to charge?  That's always the question, isn't it?  Here are some relevant discussions from the past, if you're interested in checking out some other opinions on the subject:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=79
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1340
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=1873
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9980
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10999
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11270

Personally, I think you should go with your gut. Do you have your heart set on releasing Dice Chucker for free? Then do it. Willing to sell, but think 5 bucks is too high a price? Sell it for 3, or 2, or whatever you want. In the end, it's your game. And, if it sells for crap, you can always lower the price later.

But that's getting into the realm of publishing, and this is the Indie Design forum.  So, get designing! :)

(Note: It's a rule on the Forge not to "ressurect" old threads, so if you decide you want to contribute to one of the topics I've linked to above, it's best to start a new thread with a link to the older thread.  Just an FYI.)

[oversoul01]

Thanks for the adice I am going to go and drop a line in the publisher and connections forum and see what I can fish up.  Maybe even the Actual Play forum I am curious as to what people think of the system in action, if anyone ahs tried it yet
Bobby

[DevP]

While we're at it: why make Flaws just give more attributes? You've got your power dice, especially those black ones, so maybe those Flaws can pay for themselves. How about:

I'm not sure if it was clear, but I was suggesting that, mechancally, black Power Dice in your pool are the representation of your flaw, or something to that effect.

About the tone: jokeyness is fine, but I think one problem with mkaing your own RPG is grabbing someone's attention + mindshare. In short, if you don't take your work "seriously", random-net-gamer certainly won't. (To some extent, this is a reason to sell your PDF, since people will take a $2.50 RPGnow buy more seriously than a free PDF, although some PDFs like the Pool have scored much reputation despite being free.) I did say "seriously" in quotes; I mean sorta serious/focused in the writing, but you can still be light-hearted with that.

As for making up specific power-dice: this is the sort of thing that *could* be customized for different games (i.e. different Power Dice sets cyberpunk vs. fantasy?) although not necessarily... I'd think Power Dice are better serve if each and every kind were not just mechanical but tied to some game related color, and perhaps even had a mechanic and mnemonically "fit". (I say that since too many / overcomplicated Power Dice could get unwieldy.)

Some alternate power dice ideas of the top of my head (which you may find more or less useful):

[*]Bluff Dice: you can opt to roll, then cover up the die and potentially lie about it. If you're "called" on your bluff by the opponent, you double your score if you were telling the truth, and lose it all if you were lying.
[*]Magic Dice: In a fantasy setting, these are activated when working near magic. If the dice roll a "straight" (i.e. multiple dice in a row), then you get a bonus +1 for each die involved...
[*]Cyber Dice: In a cyberpunk setting, when working with the Net. Same rules as Magic Dice (Clarke's Law?)
[*]Morality Dice: Add to your score if you are following your Code of Ethics, Subtract if you are not.[/list:u]


Have you playtested this with your local group? What was it like?

[oversoul01]

Definately good stuff Dev!
I had not given any thought to if my carefree feel (which is what I was aiming at overall from the writting) would affect it.  Over at rpghoard it has been downloaded 71 times.  But I could see how after giving it a quick look over they would just dump it.  Having other prospectives is great!  I think What I will do is when I go back into it, I will lessen it some, but at the saem time try to build a "hype" into my writting to get people wanting to play.
I like the Bluff die alot.  My only concern is being able to distinguish them on the table, that is why I was so focused on color.  I want everyone to be able to look at a die and know what it is.
Love to hear more
Bobby