Looking for layout advice

[Michael Hopcroft]

Gentles,

Since it appears I'm going to be doing my own layout on my new venture, I was wondering if any of the veteeran layout gurus could advice me on any of the following:

1. Finding an \inexp[ensive DTP program that will save to PDF withou difficulutes and produce etiher screen-read or POD-capable files? I'm looking for something in the $50-$75 range that'll do the job in a Windows environment.

2. Sources of free or cheap clipart that I can take advantage of for some layouts, and sources of inexpesive artists for those layouts that require a custom look?

3. Anything that'll teach me what I need to know to do the job properly?

[Andy Kitkowski]

whew....

Unfortunately, I can't help you: Questions 1 and 3 hinge together (finding the right program, then the tools to use that program well), unless you're also looking for basic layout books, in which case I suggest looking at night courses at area community colleges- You can probably find an excellent course for under $50.

For question number 1, I can only recommend OpenOffice... for Linux.  I know nothing that does what you're looking for for that price in Windows. I highly recommend saving up some pennies for InDesign, the (inexpensive, esp compared to quark) future of professional DTP.

[talysman]

For question number 1, I can only recommend OpenOffice... for Linux.  I know nothing that does what you're looking for for that price in Windows.

just out of curiousity, why do you not recommend OpenOffice.org for Windows? is there some difference in the PDFs produced by the two versions? I've had no problems with it, so I take it that you know of some flaw in the way the Windows version works...

as for clipart, I think Ron mentioned some in the other thread. googling for "free fantasy clipart" gets a lot of hits, although I have better luck when adding a clipart style (woodcut, for example) or other qualifiers. of course, the quality of each is going to vary.

for photos, one underappreciated source is The Internet Archive. the various public domain films available there can be a good source of stills. another would be GIMP Savy. this is mostly animals, space, and nature, since they come from government archives. you might want to check government image archives as well.

there is a great big huge list of public domain image resources (links) on the Wikipedia. this is a wider mix of stuff and includes links to art (paintings) in addition to photos. the Get Content link on the Creative Commons site allows you to search through many of these archives in one swoop.

for tutorials on layout, there are several links here.

[Jack Aidley]

I use OpenOffice for windows to make my .pdfs - it seems fine, although it has no means (that I know of?) to create an index, or anything like that. Still it is free.

[Andy Kitkowski]

just out of curiousity, why do you not recommend OpenOffice.org for Windows? is there some difference in the PDFs produced by the two versions? I've had no problems with it, so I take it that you know of some flaw in the way the Windows version works...

Ahh, I'm sorry- I never used the Windows version (just the versions that came iwth my distros of RH and SuSE), and keep forgetting one exists for Win! I haven't used the suite for a few years, anyway. It sounds like you're much more qualified in speaking about the Win version, so I'll stand behind you on that.

Thanks!
-Andy

[Brennan Taylor]

For some nice clip art, if you have a scanner, go down to your local Borders or Barnes & Noble and check out the Art section. There are tons of books with all sorts of royalty-free designs in them for $10-$15. Make sure you check the use rights in the front.

[timfire]

I use OpenOffice for windows to make my .pdfs - it seems fine, although it has no means (that I know of?) to create an index, or anything like that. Still it is free.

I use OpenOffice. I also own Pagemaker, though I'm not very familiar with it. OpenOffice is fine for simple layout. I actually do all my layout in OpenOffice, but I've never done any "professional" quality publishing, just stuff for my friends or for my website.

BTW, I believe OO has an index feature, but I haven't played with it yet, so I can't vouched for its effectiveness.

[MarktheAnimator]

Here is a fantastic artist that has very reasonable prices:

David Wong
Brick by Brick Design
www.figurepainters.com
916 372-2092

If you're going to do layout, get either Quark or InDesign.
Don't get the latest version of Quark, I hear it's buggy.

Hope that helps.

[Sixteen Coal Black Horses]

1. Finding an \inexp[ensive DTP program that will save to PDF withou difficulutes and produce etiher screen-read or POD-capable files? I'm looking for something in the $50-$75 range that'll do the job in a Windows environment.

3. Anything that'll teach me what I need to know to do the job properly?

Since you're in Portland, you might try Half Priced Books (call the Seattle stores as well -- they might mail it to you). I picked up a copy of PageWrecker, mm, excuse me, PageMaker 6.5 Win for $50.00. I've also seen InDesign 1.0 there for about $50.00. This version is awful, but you might be able to get an upgrade. If you're lucky, you might find a copy of Quark for cheap as well. If so, grab that.

These programs are fairly easy to learn. In my experience, the real layout work is done before you ever turn on your computer. You shoud know your target page size, margins, anticipated chapter and section breaks, and you should have all your art ready to go. Get it all setup and then flow in your text. After that, it's just a matter of massaging the text to fit your page budget and fine-tuning the art placement.

[Garbanzo]

Michael:

For concern-number-two (nice, cheap, pdf-ready software), I've just run across some interesting info at this site:

http://www.stampalbums.com/getting_pagemaker.htm

Basically, to buy the upgrade PageMaker 6.5 is a lot cheaper than full 6.5.  And Adobe will accept even stone age Aldus PageMaker 5.0 as the foundation for the upgrade.  This old stuff can be found on eBay for cheap cheap.  There are a couple of auctions ending up at $1.00 now.

So, you buy the antique version for a song, and then you're looking for the just-past current upgrade versions on eBay.  Net savings: lots.
There are a few codicils, clearly explained on that website, but it sounded like a pretty good idea to me.



While we're (almost) talking about it:
Andy, you're putting out a ringing endorsement for InDesign.  Most folks talk about PageMaker.  I'm a little unclear on the differences between the two.  InDesign (Adobe says) is for graphic designers and ad guys, versus the home publishers that would want PageMaker.
But if they're both doing layout for publication...

-Matt

[Keith Senkowski]

InDesign is for professional publications.  It (and Quark) are very powerful tools.  PageMaker is more geared towards my mom making flyers for the PTA.  It isn't nearly as powerful.  Does that clarrify the difference?

If you are a designer and have used InDesign or Quark and then got stuck using PageMaker you will more than likely try to hurt someone with a large stick.  

If you are looking to use InDesign (or Quark) on the cheap, http://www.kinkos.com/products/business/index.php?sol=sbs&sec=technology">Kinkos and other quick stop printing and copying places often sell time with said applications.

Oh, and if you want professional looking results I recommend either hiring a designer, paying a friend who is a designer in trade or taking the time and spending the money to learn the applications (InDesign or Quark).  Those are the only ways you are going to get professional results.

Keith