It Could Be Worse

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I say keep it open, if anyone else wants to weigh in on the original topic. A number of people have objected to over-speedy thread closing. If no one else wants to add stuff, then it'll just close on its own.

Best,
Ron

[M. J. Young]

Hmmm...I wanted to say something on the side issue, but let me address the original topic first.

I'll confess that I leave a lot of the new games discussions to people like Mike. I don't read most of them. Reading the outline of an entire game is more than I can do every evening, and there are just too many of them to keep straight. I will pop in on a thread if the subject line suggests that it is a very focused question that doesn't require me to have a thorough knowledge of someone's game design, and it's an area in which I think I can contribute; but most of the game design threads go past my eyes as a titles-only blur.

I deal mostly with RPG Theory and GNS Discussion, where I try to read every post on every thread (although lately I've skimmed a few there). I do put an effort into helping people get their theory straight, or at least letting them know when they're confusing the issue by trying to use terms that don't mean what they think. I will also often look at a game because someone specifically asked me to do so.

I'm here to help, certainly; I hope I do so in a manner which puts the Forge in a positive light. I can't help every game designer, because I have too much else on my plate. I think if I did try to help even so many as Mike does, I'd be short with many of them, too. There are a lot of people designing games, and that's very demanding on those who, like Mike, are willing to take the time to read them all. Maybe I'm just a slow reader; maybe it's because I don't do the Forge in my spare minutes at work, but in a focused push late at night before I can go to bed. I admire his efforts; I couldn't do it myself.

So thank God for Mike, and may he find patience in dealing with so many game designers.

As to the side issue, I don't know Chris Pramas at all, but I've often recognized in Gareth Michael Skarka what appears to me, at least, to be a sort of arrogance. His articles on Why Gamers Suck are certainly exemplery of that. It was nearing three years ago that he was invited to write a weekly column at Gaming Outpost, and to be paid for the effort, and he accepted. I and two others also wrote columns for pay there, so that with the site owner there were to be new columns every weekday. Skarka immediately took the attitude that GO had hired all the wrong people--that only he was worth the money they were paying, and only he should have been given the job; that they should have found people who were of the same stature in the gaming world as he was to write the columns on the other days.

His column was particularly sporadic. He sometimes skipped a couple of weeks here and there. When he did write, he often wrote very insulting pieces about what's wrong with the people who buy the games in this hobby and pay for the subscriptions that funded his writing. He seemed to be out to pick fights, always with a chip on his shoulder, always trying to stir up anger and ire on the forum in response to his work.

Then Gaming Outpost started to go under. Subscription money did not keep pace with expenses. They announced that they were going to have to exercise their option and end the contracts. We had the options of finishing out the month's notice or not, for which they promised to pay us when they could, and of continuing to publish our work on a profit sharing basis in the future.

Skarka immediately stopped writing. I recall he made several snide comments about how he had warned them about hiring second-rate writers like the rest of us. He also said that since he made his living writing, he was never going to write anything for free again.

He was certainly within his rights to decide not to write anymore, or to refuse to write for free anymore. However, he came across as extremely arrogant about the entire thing. He, in his mind, is one of the big names in this business, and that matters to him.

Now, maybe that makes me overly sensitive; maybe I expect him to troll and attempt to stir up reaction. So maybe when I see him making comments that could be interpreted badly, I'm more likely to interpret them badly. It might be that I should have and could have interpreted his comments more generously. However, I would wager that I am not the only person who sees this in Mr. Skarka; I would bet that a large number of Forge subscribers remember run-ins with him at GO and perhaps elsewhere in which his attitude of being one of the important people in the role playing game publishing world and being permitted to, as they say, pee on the peons, has been offensive and disruptive. Thus my reaction would be to shut it down when it shows its first signs of rearing its ugly antagonistic head, because I don't believe the man can engage in reasonable dialogue. I've never seen him do it, that I recall.

I think Ron exercised significant patience and restraint in that situation.

But as I say, having seen Mr. Skarka's venomous rhetoric elsewhere, I may be biased.

--M. J. Young

[GMSkarka]

So, Ron---

Where's the moderation of MJ?      

Oh-wait....that's right.  You only moderate when you perceive a slight against either The Forge or yourself.   Blatant character assassination and libel against someone in "the industry" is just fine.

[M. J. Young]

A fair amount of moderation at this site happens behind the scenes, by private message. I apologize for the content of my post that was inappropriate to the mission of The Forge; it was unnecessary, and I have been told this privately.

I also apologize if anything I wrote about Mr. Skarka was false, or a mischaracterization of the truth, or if I have indeed (as I admitted was possible) put the worst construction on his comments instead of (as I try to do with most posters) the best.

--M. J. Young

[greyorm]

Gareth, and anyone else to whom this might apply now or in the future,

Regardless of whether or not you were wronged, the above is not ever an appropriate way to interact here (or anywhere in the adult world). If you cannot imagine how else you could have or should have posted the above, then I suggest you private message myself or someone else here whom you feel you can trust, and ask for help with phrasing your criticisms.

Otherwise, it is simply the airing of personal grudges in public; a private soap opera of the ego that serves no one and detracts from everyone. Nurse your personal grudges in private, the same place you should deal with them.

So..."It could be worse."
Yes, it could. This, and similar recent instances by various parties, could be the standard fare on this site. That it isn't and hasn't been says a great deal about our community, its policies, and our moderators.

[Andrew Morris]

Yeah, greyorm, I felt pretty much the same way when I read that post. I didn't realize it was one of the people being discussed. Humorously, I was going to say that was a good example of "crossing the line" into area that might need moderation, but since MJ responded to it politely, I didn't feel it was necessary to say anything. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought it was childish and innapropriate, though.

[GMSkarka]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought it was childish and innapropriate, though.

Childish and inappropriate to defend myself?   Whatever.

The point here, since so many of you are so far up Ron's ass that you can't see it, is that people who criticize him or The Forge are publicly moderated, and fast.  Meanwhile, Mr. Young's dragging my name through the mud merited only a supposed private moderation.

You people are a fucking joke.   Enjoy your little cult.   Try the Kool-Aid.

[Ron Edwards]

Thread's closed.

Best,
Ron

[greyorm]

EDIT: Whoops, sorry, didn't hit Refresh before I posted my reply. Post deleted. Thread closed.

[Ron Edwards]

Gahhhh! Thread's closed. If you guys really were cult members, I wouldn't have this problem ...

Best,
Ron