Sorcerer and Pullman's His Dark Materials

[Per Fischer]

Excuse me if this is a stupid-kind-of post, I am waiting for my Sorcerer copy (due Thursday).

I can't help thinking of Philip Pullman's brilliant trilogy His Dark Materials (Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass -Northern Lights is called The Golden Compass in the US I think), where all people have Daemons at their side, expressing their feelings etc. Children's Daemons are constantly changing, while they find a fixed animal form when becoming adult. Doesn't that strike a chord in relation to Sorcerer?

Per

[Nev the Deranged]

Haven't read those but have heard raves about them. Should I go pick them up? (Apologies for not actually addressing your question)

[iambenlehman]

Excuse me if this is a stupid-kind-of post, I am waiting for my Sorcerer copy (due Thursday).

I can't help thinking of Philip Pullman's brilliant trilogy His Dark Materials (Northern Lights, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass -Northern Lights is called The Golden Compass in the US I think), where all people have Daemons at their side, expressing their feelings etc. Children's Daemons are constantly changing, while they find a fixed animal form when becoming adult. Doesn't that strike a chord in relation to Sorcerer?

Per

BL>  While you could do this with Sorcerer, I think you would be better off with another game system.

Why?  In short, they symbolize different things.  Pullman's Daemons are, in fact, the free will aspect of the soul personified.  Edwards's Demons are metaphors for a dysfunctional relationship.

In fact, Daemon and Demon have totally different etymologies, even.  Totally different concepts.  Strange, that...

Now, if there are characters in His Dark Materials who are Sorcerers.  But Lyra's demon isn't Pan, who is just a sidekick.  Rather, it is the Alethiometer (hint+perception(multiple kinds+cover(oracular device)).  Will's demon starts out as the Subtle Knife, and he adds the angel later.  Mary has the spyglass, of course.  Lord Asriel is a sorcerer-supreme.  But the daemons aren't demons.

yrs--
--Ben

[Per Fischer]

Nev, I would say you should give them a go. My guess is that they will leave a lasting impression on you (I have only had one friend that didn't like Pullman, he just thought they were too 'heavy', whatever that means).

Why?  In short, they symbolize different things.  Pullman's Daemons are, in fact, the free will aspect of the soul personified.  Edwards's Demons are metaphors for a dysfunctional relationship.

In fact, Daemon and Demon have totally different etymologies, even.  Totally different concepts.  Strange, that...

I agree completely there, Ben, but as I keep reading on the Forge and RPGNet that Sorcerer's premise(?) can be tweaked to anything from dysfunctional relationship to [insert own adjective] relationship, I just thought it would be very easy to do. I read your answer such that it's possible to do Dark Materials in Sorcerer but that it would really contradict the true purpose of the game. And I apologise right away for misusing Forge terminology if that's the case - I am still reading through articles, glossary and a million posts to become up-to-date ;)

Anyway, this line of thought just made me pull the first book down from the shelf. I am going to re-read it :)

Per[/quote]

[iambenlehman]

Why?  In short, they symbolize different things.  Pullman's Daemons are, in fact, the free will aspect of the soul personified.  Edwards's Demons are metaphors for a dysfunctional relationship.

In fact, Daemon and Demon have totally different etymologies, even.  Totally different concepts.  Strange, that...

I agree completely there, Ben, but as I keep reading on the Forge and RPGNet that Sorcerer's premise(?) can be tweaked to anything from dysfunctional relationship to [insert own adjective] relationship, I just thought it would be very easy to do. I read your answer such that it's possible to do Dark Materials in Sorcerer but that it would really contradict the true purpose of the game. And I apologise right away for misusing Forge terminology if that's the case - I am still reading through articles, glossary and a million posts to become up-to-date ;)

BL>  I'm not so opposed to the idea of His Dark Materials in Sorcerer as I first thought.  It's an interesting idea.  I just think that there needs to be a divide between the daemons (expressions of personality) and demons (objects of power.)  I would, personally, put the Daemons in the hands of other players, and the Demons in the hands of the GM.

In fact, HDM would make a great version of Charnel Gods...  and now that I think about that... I want to do it.

Anyway, this line of thought just made me pull the first book down from the shelf. I am going to re-read it :)

BL>  Anything that makes you reread the Golden Compass is a good thing :-)  I wasn't too enamored of the last book, but the Golden Compass is brilliant.

yrs--
--Ben

[Per Fischer]

BL>  I'm not so opposed to the idea of His Dark Materials in Sorcerer as I first thought.  It's an interesting idea.  I just think that there needs to be a divide between the daemons (expressions of personality) and demons (objects of power.)  I would, personally, put the Daemons in the hands of other players, and the Demons in the hands of the GM.

In fact, HDM would make a great version of Charnel Gods...  and now that I think about that... I want to do it.

Daemons in the hands of other players? Sounds like Shadows in Wraith, which I utilised in a non-WOD scenario once and liked very much. Player reactions (expectedly) went from great to what's-this-crap.

Should child daemons and adult daemons be the same or handled with some sort of difference?

Ben, when you say "I want to do it", what do you mean? You want to develop it further on these boards or yourself?

On another note, it's interesting that you liked Spyglass less, I thought it was by far the best, and on the whole an astonishing read.

Per

[Solomon]

Forgive me for going off topic, but I haven't yet read His Dark Materials in spite of many recommendations.

In fact, Daemon and Demon have totally different etymologies, even.  Totally different concepts.  Strange, that...

This is a nit-pick, but I just have to add that "daemon" and "demon" are essentially the same word with the same etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin daemôn, from Latin, spirit, from Greek daimôn, divine power.  Of course, the Greek daimôns were literally demonized in the Christian era.  Maybe that's what you mean when you write that they're totally different concepts.

We now return to your regularly scheduled RPG discussion.

[Per Fischer]

Apparently, Pullman based the books on Paradise Lost, and the he in His Dark Materials is a reference to God. Pullman is very critical towards institutionalised religion and people claiming to know the truth about God(s).
But one of the big themes is certainly Man versus God.
Here is a tasty Pullman quote from a discussion forum in 2001:
"[The Authority in His Dark Materials] is the God of the burners of heretics, the hangers of witches, the persecuters of Jews, the officials who recently flogged that poor girl in Nigeria who had the misfortune to become pregant after having been forced to have sex - all these people claim to know with absolute certainty that their God wants them to do these things. Well, I take them at their word, and I say in response that that God deserves to die."
I got that from the unofficial fansite http://www.darkmaterials.com/

I am not sure that brings me any closer to using HDM in Sorcerer, which I by the way received yesterday. I love it. I want to play it. I have lots of questions. And I want to spread the word ;)

[pete_darby]

Well, bear in mind that the current Archbishop of Canterbury is a fan, and has pretty much agreed with Pullman's statement quoted above... with the necessary caveat that, of course, the God of the C of E isn't anything like that, but, interestingly, that a mortal and vulnerable deity would, of course, behave exactly like the god of HDM.

As a source for a form of Speculative Theology (the theistic cousin to SF), they're some of the best in a small field. As such, they're gold for Nar gaming; "What if god was mortal and insecure?"