Torm - Hit Location Problems

[Chris Lekas]

First off - Hi all, I just found this Forum and it looks great. I intend on posting an overview of my system, but at the moment I am stuggling with the Combat rules so that is where my first post will focus.

On to the Meat:
To hit location or not to hit location, that is the question that has been plaguing me. I really want to use hit location rules in my system. My current method involves taking the final numerical value of the damage and comparing it to a table based on type of damage and location of hit.

I.E. - The damage roll after all modifiers is a 23. The weapon used was a mace and thus does bashing damage. The left arm was rolled for hit location. So you look at the chart for Left arm bashing and see that a 20-25 indicates a broken bone and applies negative modifiers to the use of that arm unless it is healed properly.

My problem is that to properly use hit location charts you would need a book full of them. You would need charts for every size shape and type of creature, as well as different charts for size differences (A halfing won't have the slightest chance of hitting a hill giant's head with a shortsword). On the other hand, I abhor hit points. Having the damage you can take as a simple numericle value has always rankled me. Also I want the ability to acuratly represent the effects of damage to certain locations (eyes, arms, legs etc.) Does anyone have an idea on how to use hit location rules without requiring hundreds of different charts?

[Andrew Martin]

My problem is that to properly use hit location charts you would need a book full of them. You would need charts for every size shape and type of creature, as well as different charts for size differences (A halfing won't have the slightest chance of hitting a hill giant's head with a shortsword). On the other hand, I abhor hit points. Having the damage you can take as a simple numericle value has always rankled me. Also I want the ability to acuratly represent the effects of damage to certain locations (eyes, arms, legs etc.) Does anyone have an idea on how to use hit location rules without requiring hundreds of different charts?

Hi, Chris, welcome to The Forge!

Have you read RuneQuest II or III from Chaosium or Avalon Hill? These games systems have hit locations using a D20 for all their monsters, based on a common system. For example, humanoid creatures (including most PCs), have the humanoid hit location chart. All four legged creatures have a common four-legged hit location chart. And the few weird monsters of Glorantha have their own unique hit-location along with the monster description and statistics. The chart had two columns, one column for melee attacks, the other for missile (and spell) attacks.

For the problem of small creatures attacking large creatures and vice-versa, along with mounted riders attacking foot and vice-versa, the hit location was modified to using a D10 for small versus large or a D10+10 for large versus small.

Here's the humanoid hit location chart from RuneQuest III published by Avalon Hill:

Code Select Expand


Area        Melee      Missile
R Leg       01 - 04   01 - 03
L Leg        05 - 08   04 - 06
Abdomen  09 - 11   07 - 10
Chest       12          11 - 15
R Arm      13 - 15    16 - 17
L Arm       16 - 18    18 - 19
Head        19 - 20    20


The charts for all the monsters in the Creatures Book (part of the boxed set of Rune Quest III) occupied just 2 and a bit pages.

[MarktheAnimator]

Hello,
My solution to hit locations can be found here:

http://www.fantasyimperium.com/freestuff.html

You may also want to glance at my "Combat" section on the website.

Just download my chart and see what you think.

Hit locations can really add a realistic feel to a game.  It can also slow it down drastically.  So what you need is a system of quickly determining the location and damage.

In my system, you choose where you want to strike (head, body, arm leg) and then roll for a specific location.  
If shooting, you don't get to choose a general location (unless you take a penalty to hit of -15%).

The weapon's damage is rolled, and after looking at where the person was struck, you subtract armor (different pieces of armor cover different parts of the body) from the total.  

If any damage penetrated the armor, you add the extra damage which is listed on the chart.

I use a system of wound levels to determine what happens.  
Minor, light, serious, critical, terminal.  
Depending on where the person was struck, different effects will occur.  
A serious wound to the head (10 pts) will knock the person out.
A serious wound to the arm or leg will render it useless.
etc.

There is also general damage that subtracts from the person's total hits.


The problem with this system is that everyone always aims for the head.
I'm considering making it easier to parry an attack aimed at the head to help compensate for this.
Totally random locations for hand weapons isn't realistic.  
In the SCA, where they simulate medieval combat, they aim at specific locations.  Also, any fencer will tell you that they can choose their strike locations as well.

I also allow people to aim at specific loactions (eye for instance) with another penalty to hit (-25%).  Shooters will have to pay a penalty for the general location (-15%), and also for the specific location (-25%).

Another issue is just how much does a particular weapon do when you categorize it by EDGED, BLUNT, POINT?  I gave up trying to figure this out.  However, I still use these attack categories in my table, because a blunt wound will behave much differently than a edged (slash) wound.

For this kind of advice, you should talk to a paramedic or doctor.  My friend is a paramedic and I squeezed his brain to make my game more realistic.

Then you will have to deal with SHOCK, TRAUMA, etc.

So adding a hit location system to your game will make it cool and give it a more realistic feel, but you have to be careful or it will get out of hand, slowing your game down.

[Wilper]

The Wound level system described by Mark is very good (I have seen it other games.), it is pretty fast and realistic "enough".

Regarding the number of tables, if all of them (and other tables used in combat)  fit on a sheet or two it isn't really a problem, the GM can xerox them and hand out to each player.  Once everyone can look up their own rolls in the tables (or even better: help the neighbour to look stuff up) even quite table-heavy games like Rolemaster can become pretty fast paced.

[Tobias]

Snippage.

My problem is that to properly use hit location charts you would need a book full of them. You would need charts for every size shape and type of creature, as well as different charts for size differences (A halfing won't have the slightest chance of hitting a hill giant's head with a shortsword). On the other hand, I abhor hit points. Having the damage you can take as a simple numericle value has always rankled me. Also I want the ability to acuratly represent the effects of damage to certain locations (eyes, arms, legs etc.) Does anyone have an idea on how to use hit location rules without requiring hundreds of different charts?

Hi Chris.

I would imagine Andrew's suggestion covers you question quite well. If you're really worried about shapes, you could probably make do with just one or 2 extra tables.

If you want speed, I would try to keep it simple and stick to GM's interpretation of what a certain location means when hitting an abnormal-shaped creature.

Also, (some of) the location-table using systems I've seen explode in size because of the tons of different graphical descriptions of what happens when cuisinart X strikes 6-legged creature Y for Z damage. (And some of the appeal is ready all those yummy gory descriptions). But do you really need that? Unless detailed healing is neccesary, you as a GM would probably be just fine knowing which area was struck - if you think that kinda thing important - and whether it was struck lightly or strongly.

If I had a table with all those graphical descriptions of ruptured veins etc., I would only be able to use the same description once, really, before players would find the description: "Happens to slice exactly between medialcarpal and whatsamacarpal causing blood to spurt out 3.2 feet."

[MarktheAnimator]

I used to run Rolemaster and you had to be pretty fast flipping through the charts to keep the game moving.

There was a game called, Sword Path's Glory that was full of very detailed hit location charts and realistic wound determination.  It took forever to play out the simplest combats.
Their system would make a very good computer game however. :)

In Fantasy Imperium, I decided to compromise by using one chart for location, one chart for hit probability and one chart for various attacks and defenses.  The system of wound levels works out pretty well.  I've playtested the game for 10 years and have worked out most of the bugs.

I've tackled the size problem by modifying the original damage by the size of the person inflicting that damage, and also by requiring more hits to reach a certain wound level.....
I have different size classes (tiny, small, normal, large, huge).
All damage is converted to normal size and the amount of damage required to inflict a level of wound varies by the size of the target.
So a halfling (small size) would inflice half damage to a normal sized opponent. A normal weapon would still do normal damage to a dragon (huge size), but instead of needing 10 points for a serious wound (for instance), you would need to inflict 50 points for a huge sized creature.

The table is listed here in case you're interested:
http://www.fantasyimperium.com/freestuff.html

I haven't really dealt with different charts for different types of monsters..... I just use my regular hit chart and apply the results to the monster.... (I may have to look at this later...hmmm).

Anyway, thats how I dealt with the problem.  I hope it gives you some ideas.  :)

[Chris Lekas]

Thanks all, this has really helped. Andrew, thanks especally for your suggestion to number the two halfs of the hit location chart such that a single d10 will cover one or the other half. Mark, I do like the wound level idea, and while I have a few other ideas, I will definately look into that. I think that in the end I will have two main charts, one for humanoids and a generic one. The generic one will say things like: Motive appendige, manipulative apendige, etc. The GM will then be encouraged to either design specific tables if they and their group want them, and to just use common sense.