(The Operation) humanity-type rules

[MPOSullivan]

heya guys,

okay, i've been working on this game for a group of friends, a LeCarre or "Bourne" style espionage game, high action thriller type stuff.  It's meant to be kind of a crash course in narrativist style gameplay, something that has the built-in action of most of the common gamist and simulationist games available on the market, but the system is (hopefully) narr enough that it's something new and different for the players without scaring them.  I'm trying to bridge the gap between DnD and Sorcerer.  the system places the roll of narrating outcome onto the players themselves and allows them to manipulate general narration through the use of a Drama Point mechanic.

The core of the game is something else though.  the game is meant to be about the delicate balance that a person must find in order to retain their sanity and keep their fighting edge while being an agent.  Too much time "under" will result in an agent that is disjointed, malicious, or even a danger to the general public.  Too much time spent out of the field or being a person that is too devoted to being a "White Hat" will create agents that find the job too hard to stomach.

now, on to the rough part.  i'm trying to divise a "humanity" like score that gauges the state of mind of the character.  Basically, the way i envision it right now is, characters have a rating in a score called Edge.  this Edge refers to the one that spies and agents have to remain on in order to stay focused.  Of course, the more reprehensible things your character does, the more his Edge ratin will increase, driving the character "Over the Edge".  This manifests in a character as mania, a shakiness or a cold demeanor.  

the other side of the coin is that characters become more moral.  They are filled with a sense of meaning or hope and they may seem more approachable and kind to others.  this is referred to as "losing your edge".  or, at least, that's the way it stands right now.

now, onto my problem.  i find the idea of having a character gauge that forces players to conform to certain playtypes reprehensible and annoying.  i want a gauge like a humanity score that shows players how far along they are on the road to insanity, but i can't figure out how the repercussions of a high or low Edge rating should play out.

i'll be forward and honest about this, i don't know if i do plan on publishing this game in any format within the near future.  eventually i would like ot post a version of this game online, but as it stands, my time has been serisouly cut into due to outside reasons.  Ron, if you feel that i can't post here due to that, i understand and won't persue this any longer.  If, since the game is currently being played by my group, this would be better suited for the Actual Play forum, then just say so and i'll bop on over.

[Ben Lehman]

Okay, please clarify for a bit how you're going to use this game.  Because, right now, it sounds like you're trying to "subtlely introduce some Narrativism" and, frankly, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9812">You Can't Sneak Up On Mode.  (Ala Mike Holmes.)

The "Edge," as you describe it, has the potential to be used as a very powerful gamist challenge or a very strong narrativist tool, but I seriously doubt that it will be both *at the same time*, which is what it sounds like you want.

So, are you trying to take your group of happy Gamists and make them hip, cool Narrativists?  Don't.  Please.  Gamists are super-hip already, especially if they're having a good time.  If you're expecting to "bridge" the play, I expect your in for a lot of painful disappointment because even if such a bridge is theoretically possible, it is very difficult.

yrs--
--Ben

[MPOSullivan]

the players have all been playing games in the Gamist mode for a while now, but they want to try something new.  I've been showing them games along the lines of Sorcerer and they like what they see, but they get a little afraid too.  They want to try something, as they call it, "experimental".  I want to be able to present them with the basic concepts behind narrativist play without getting them in over their heads.  they all enjoy the occasional combat scenario and i'm a fan of the spy/espionage thriller, so it seemed like a good combination.  

i don't expect the Edge to be a rule that will be both narrativist and gamist in nature, i'd actually like for it to be the most up front narrativist thing about the game.  i kind of want it to be the person greeting them at the door, taking their coat and showing them around the place, introducing them to everyone.  ideally, through the way the players view their Edge, i want them to be able to speak about the story and influence and color it.

honestly, i'm not trying to convert them.  these guys are what they are already.  they've all shown interrest in what i've had to bring to the table and they want to try something new.  I live in honolulu now and these guys haven't been exposed to much beyond DnD and Vampire (no game-bashing intended, just talking about game modes and going with the two most obvious).  When i've shown these guys games like Nobilis and Sorcerer they all got this mean little glint in their eye.  then they came around and said "this sounds like a lot of fun, but do you have something a little more tailored to us?"  after a little poking and prodding i discovered by this they didn't mean system-specific elements or the idea of having more cointrol over story elements, they liked those things, actually.  they meant specific setting elements.  while sorcerer is very open to interpretation by players, the group really didn't want much to do with magickal things, prefering to take it in a more "real world" direction, and the same could be said of myself.  

when i said in the post above that i was creating "something that has the built-in action of most of the common gamist and simulationist games available on the market", i was referring to more setting specific tropes like the presence of monsters to beat up in DnD and the inter-clan warfare of Vampire.  Most games on the market that are Gamist or Sim in nature seem to really set up for fighting stuff and this is what the guys were used to.  I didn't want to get all Nobilis on them and say "combat may be fun, but it's the worst way you could ever hope to resolve a problem".  I'm tihnking more HeroQuest, in that it definitely has a Narr system, but it also really likes to have some monster fightin'.  so, going with the cue from their previous gaming being somewhat violent and political in nature i started to develop the espionage thriller game here that i'm currently calling the Operation.  

In all, am i trying to sneak the narr thing up on them?  hell, no.  i'm trying to put it right in the middle of the window and give it the best dressing i can, showing it in all of its glory.

birds are tweeting.  bedtime now.

[ethan_greer]

Have you considered Riddle of Steel? Not to distract you from the Operation, but it almost seems like too good a fit for me not to mention it.

[buddha]

Zathreyel,

I hope I'm addressing the question correctly;  

You might have different levels of the Edge give you a bonus to some types of actions and a similar penalty to others.  Perhaps high Edge means trouble relating to others empathically, but your level of paranoia is so high you are rarely surprised and always ready for danger.  Low Edge might mean the opposite, slowed reflexes, but higher empathy.  You could make Edge a continuum, with the players selecting where they fall on that both by choice (every time they do something brutal, deceitful, or put the mission above personal concerns they may decide to take a point of Edge) and/or GM fiat (you've done something so reprehensible that you must take a point of Edge, a sign that to the player that they need to dial it back before they go to far).  

Anyway, just an idea, hope it works for you, or at least gives you a better idea! :)

buddha

[MPOSullivan]

Have you considered Riddle of Steel? Not to distract you from the Operation, but it almost seems like too good a fit for me not to mention it.

well, i was tihnking about tRoS actually but, once again it comes down to setting.  they had just been through a large fantasy campaign and were a little burnt out on the setting standards.  i've been running a sci-fi/fantasy game for a little while now with a different group and i wanted to be sur that the games were on two completely different ends of the spectrum.

and, to buddha:

a good suggestion!  i was thinking of something along those lines, but i'm not sure.  i do like the idea that players can chose to take points of Edge on their own, when they feel that it's neccessary.  that's probably going to see its way into the game.

really, the only thing i'm looking not to do in this is make an alignment system.  "Your character has an edge of 7, so you should play him as..." doesn't really fit in with my agenda for the game, and it's never really felt right for me to tell someone that they have to act a certain way.  maybe the modifiers is the best way to handle it.  it would suggest to the players a way to play their characters without forcing them to act in a certain fashion.

ah, i dunno!  well, more suggestions are greedily accepted.  and thanks guys!

laters

[Sydney Freedberg]

You might have different levels of the Edge give you a bonus to some types of actions and a similar penalty to others.  Perhaps high Edge means trouble relating to others empathically, but your level of paranoia is so high you are rarely surprised and always ready for danger.  Low Edge might mean the opposite, slowed reflexes, but higher empathy....

On a very similar note, check out the discussion over in RPG theory on "emotion mechanics" (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11363), which includes some propsed systems similar to this and addresses the whole issue of player control that you were worried about.

(Please note I said "addresses," not "resolves"....)

[Chris Lekas]

Hmmm...For one thing, I think that a high Edge score would also effect personal interaction greatly. Humans are not used to being around someone who lives a truly violent lifestyle. Even if they do not recognize it cognitively, their subcouncious is reading all of the the little indicators like body movemant and screaming "Shit, Predator". At higher levels of Edge, people will become more than a little spooked when around the character. They may not be able to explain it, but just being around the character will make them uncomfortable. This should be represented by negative modifiers on social rolls. On the other hand, when you are trying to come across as a badass or even be downright scary, this works in your benefit. Just a thought.

[Tobias]

One of the first things I was thinking was a spectrum as well. But that will always have one score high and one score low - or both balanced. Shouldn't it be possible (but hard) to have both high? Or be a disillusioned, burnt out agent? (both low).

Nothing stopping you from saying that they are always in conflict, though, if that's what you want - run with it.

I'm also reminded of the paradox/quintessence wheel from Mage, if I'm recalling correctly. It's a wheel, open at the top. From the right, you count qunitessence (blocks of magical energy) and from the left you count paradox (bad anti-magic juju). As they increase, they creep towards each other in the middle (bottom) of the wheel. Once there, they start mutually destroying each other (actually, paradox only destroys quintessence, but that's not really relevant).

I personally quite like the idea that a high-edge agent doesn't have to appear to threatening if his morality is also strong - but like mentioned before, there's a lot to be said for the tension that will be created by edge and morality always being in conflict.

[Chris Lekas]

I personally quite like the idea that a high-edge agent doesn't have to appear to threatening if his morality is also strong - but like mentioned before, there's a lot to be said for the tension that will be created by edge and morality always being in conflict.

My only comment is that even a very moral person who has a high "Edge" is likely to make people nervous. It's not morality that makes this so, but basic physical motions. Moral or otherwise someone with that kind of training and experiance will always be hyper-aware, always be in precise physical control over their body movemants, etc. Its thos effects which tip other people off subconciously.

[Tobias]

True. My sensei can come across like this, for instance. Not disputed at all.