Philosophical/"Wonder Story" setting

[Palaskar]

Alright, folks, this is a long post. It would be much, much longer if I fleshed out all the details, but 1) I figured discussion would change some important parts and 2) I'm just too lazy at this point to detail all 20 or so races, 10+ professions, 4+ magic types, and 3 religous viewpoints with variants for each major race, and various minor race variants.

Nevertheless, I expect that there will be issues that need to be cleared up, so don't be shy, and tell me.

After seeing the incredible response to the "Marshworld" setting, I've been encouraged to revise my own setting, "The Fifth Hour." The name comes from the time when the shadow (or light) of the obelisks in the setting is at its height, i.e., noon.

Goals:
(in order of importance)
1. I want this setting to be a "wonder story" type setting a la Tolkein (sp?) which explores philosophical issues through the interaction of various groups in the setting. Each major race represents a distinct view of the meaning of life.
2. Role-playing is to be emphasized. No farming, no camping, no multiple copies of "unique" items, etc. The philosphical issues are there to (theoretically) provides issues to fight over by martial arts duels, magic, and war.
3. The setting should be MMORPG-compatible. Hence, the healing effects of the obelisks. Also, characters start out skilled -- no being killed by butterflies.
4. All races in the setting should be playable. Hence, protea (plant/insects) replace animals and plants in the Overworld, and topia (plant/vertabrates) replace animals and plants in the Underworld.

SETTING

The edge of the Overworld is a ring of fire. Just inside the ring is a vast, ancient city in various states of disrepair that circles the whole Overworld. After exiting the City, there are three areas dividing the world like a pie: a vast prairie, a cloud forest, and the Great Sea. In the center of the Overworld, one finds a great marshy jungle, in the center of which is a immense obsidian obelisk thousands of miles high, and covered with all the secret knowledge of the world.

we have bodies ressurect naturally in most circumstances. But in certain other circumstances, they decompose naturally at an accelerated (sp?) rate.

The Underworld is the Overworld's opposite. The edge of the Underworld is a vast range of mountains covered in snow and ice. Deep inside the mountains are vast caverns holding a Underdark-like area. Inwards, and on the surface there are two areas, dividing the Underwold like a pie: a vast tundra, and a sea dotted by volcanic islands and coral reefs. At the center is a beautiful, well-maintained city, at the center of which is a glowing white obelisk thousands of miles high. The Underworld's obelisk has no symbols on it whatsoever. Above all this is a sky clouded by storms, similar to Larry Niven's "The Smoke Ring."

we have bodies ressurect naturally in most circumstances. But in certain other circumstances, they decompose naturally at an accelerated (sp?) rate.


When a character dies of old age, or by having his body completely destroyed, he is reborn on the opposite world (Overworld goes to Underworld, Underworld goes to Overworld.) There are also a number of minor races, religions, and martial arts styles which I have omitted for space. I also figure that there will be a number of good ideas that may cause them to be revised. But I'll post them if anyone is curious.

The Overworld

The first area of the Overworld is an "islandworld" inhabited by the Dragonlords. The Dragonlords appear s Asian humanoid dragons with batlike wings they use as gills. They are equally at home in the skies or underwater. Turtle "islands" dot the Great Sea, constantly moving about in predictable flowing patterns, diving below the sea, and swimming in the sky.

The second area of the Overworld is an "abandoned ringed cityworld."The cityworld is ancient, levels on levels. It is inhabited by the Terrors (humans.) The Terrors are hated and feared by the other inhabitants of the Overworld is the most dangerous of all its inhabitants. Merely talking to a Terror is said to drive one insane. The cityworld is filled with remnants of high technology, such as the "soul gems", whose pupose and use is now largely lost.

The third area of the Overworld is a "cloud forest world" consisting of huge trees with hanging orchids and moss, nourished by clouds of fog collecting on the heights of mountainsides generating a complex, layered ecology.. it is inhabited by the Giants. The Giants are made like composite bows of bone, sinew, and wood -- rely on an isolinear crystal or "soul gem" to invigorate new Giant with "Ruah" or the breath of life. They live hollowed out mountain fortresses or perhaps hollowed out trees.

The fourth area of the Overworld is a "plainsworld" populated by herds of buffalo-like creature, cities of praire-dog-like creatures, with a constant threat of grassfires. It is inhabited by Sun People who have hair and eyes of flame, blue-black skin, pointed nails, and fanged eyeteeth. They have a culture similar to America's Plains Indians, but run at extreme speeds instead of using horses. They drink blood and are prized for games resulting in "good death," i.e., human sacrifice by cremation, preventing any healing.

The fifth area of the Overworld is a "marshworld" similar to that discussed before in the Game Design forum.  It is inhabited by a race of small water buffalo-like humanoids, who have white stripes on black-furred bodies. They reproduce quickly and are marsupials. Every three generations, their population becomes excessive, and they invade other areas of the Overworld.

The Underworld

The first area of the Underworld is a "tundraworld." It is inhabited by the Bunyips, four-armed white-furred aquatic animals with the power of duplication.

The second area of the Underworld is a "stormworld" similar to Larry Niven's "Smoke Ring" stories, but with crazy unpredictable storms. It is inhabited by the Jotuns, who are similar to the "Grey" aliens of mondern myth. They are seven feet tall, sexless, and with blue eyes. They  live on flying discs in the middle of an enivronment of giant flying trees and cloud plants.

The third area of the Underworld is a classical "underworld," similar to the "Underdark" of AD&D, but without any light whatsoever. It is inhabited the Blind, tall, pale humanoids with large pointed ears, but no eyes or nose. The Blind supplement their bodies with clockwork body parts, replacing hands, arms, legs and even torsos. The Blind "see" through echolation of whistles, and have no concept of things such as "color."

The fourth area of the Underworld is a giant temple located around the obelisk of the Underworld. It is populated by the People of the Word, who memorize and create oral literature. Key characters to stories tatooed on bodies. The  tattoos are natural camouflage and keys to personal magic.

The fifth area of the Underworld is a "coral reefworld" heated by volcanoes, but savaged by the testing of the Jotun "Destroyer" weapons, similar to the nuclear testing in our world. The fifth area is populated by the Half-Dead, humanoids face and body are half red, half white, colors switch at neck. The Half-Dead are capable of taking tremendous physical damage and have fantastic healing powers.

Minor races of the Overworld

Protea (giant plant-insects)
["Pagan" race] 22)Man-Scorpions[MARRIAGE]
["Biblical" race]7)Alicorn -- Arabian unicorn-humanoids[ARABS (Middle East)
["Biblical" race]17)Prism Angels -- Origami/Stained-Glass/Living Rainbows/Stars [ANGELS]
Beautiful People [Wax Mummies w/ eagle's wings]
["have-not" race] 30) The Small People -- collar of iron quills around neck, also on forearms, very strong but small size, live in burrows in very large groups, extremely prone to violence, partially furred (like Super Saiyan 4), poisonous skin, no ears (listens through skin), telepathic [praire-dog-like creatures]
3)The Peaceful People -- arms of a gorilla, head of an owl, body of a bear, tail and smell of a skunk, retractable palm blades[buffalo-like creatures]

[sea creatures] Protea: crabs, lobsters, seaweed 'snakes', sea urchins
[sky creatures] Protea: giant bugs, aerospikes, mantas-shelled 'flyers'
26) African Beholders/ Bouncing Ball Creatures[DIVORCE]
Minor races of the Underworld

Cherubim [Abortions/Exposed Babies]
"Copycats" 24) duplicating egg-hatching things[EXOPHILES]
Topia [half-plant, half animal; have green humaniod form with animal head and green animal form]
[Prayer Rugs] 28) Ssurrans -- rock rollers w/2 prehensile tentacles w/3 finger each [ROCK STARS]
[The Touched]27) Brain-eaters-- gliding membranes w/feathers, dog heads, monkey tails w/fluffable fur, humanoid bodies, eat brains, OCD regarding their possessions [PROFESSORS]
["Biblical" race] "White Knights" -- Slime molds, outer cyst armor, inner amoebic muscle[UGLY PALADINS]
14) Mastodon people -- pledged to peace, graceful, but with inborn rage -- triple prehensile trunks -- Buddhist elephants[NONVIOLENCE] [mastodon-like people]

[smoke ring flying lifeforms] Topia -- cloud-plant animals
[underdark life forms] Topia -- bat, mushroom animals
[grotesque sea life] Death Topia -- death manatees, death seals, death pseudo-pemnguins
Hermits: Earthworm Paladin People on Spice -- Coral Hermit Crab Shell Power Armor

Philosophical viewpoints 1) is Overworld, 2) is Underworld
1) To enjoy or experience life. Enjoy the "moment," the "journey." (Dragonlords
1) Life is a mystery. (Terrors[Humans]
1) To contribute to something that is greater than ourselves. (Giants
1) To serve or worship God and/or prepare for the next (or after-) life. (Sun People
1) Life is a test. ([Ogres]Water-Buffalo Deer Elves

2) Life is meaningless. (15) Bunyips
2) Life is a struggle. (Jotun
2) To become self-actualized. (The Blind
2) To create your own meaning. (The People of the Word[Tatooed Men
2) Life is absurd or a joke. (The Half-Dead

Modern Problems
Tribalism. (Sexism, Racism, Ethnic Cleansing, etc.) (Racial Diveristy and Conflict)
Slow Death.
   (Overpopulation[1)Elves or Ogres/ 2)Cherubim[Abortions/Exposed Babies]),
   Loss of the Environment/Loss of Species [1) Topia/2) "Copycats"],
   Loss of Languages/Culture [1)Elves or Ogres/2)The People of the Word]
Have's vs. Have-Nots (Industrialized Nations vs. Third World)
   1)Beautiful People[Mummies]/Brain-Eaters(2)
   vs. 1)The Blind/2)Bunyips)


Religious Systems
Biblical (Sun)
   (1] Sun People, Giants, Alicorn, Topia, Prism Angels
    2] White Knights, Ssurans, Cherubim, The People of the Word, Bunyips)
Pagan (Shadow)
   (1] Elves/Ogres, Terrors, Man-Scorpions
   2] Jotuns, The Blind, Beautiful People)
Pantheist ([Dynamic] Balance)
    1) Dragonlords
    2)"Copycats"

Martial Styles
Energy (Sun People) [running, flying, punching]
Control of the Senses (Dragonlords) [5 senses, space, time]
Pain Infliction and Resistance (Jotuns) [joint locking, pressure points]
Pattern Recognition and Generation (Scribes) [pattern strikes cf. arnis, calligraphy movements cf.    
   Confucianism]
Speed (Elves) [hands, rushing/running, jumping]
Power (Giants) [kicks, wrestling]
Accuracy (The Touched) [tender points, tearing]
Flexibility [tumbling, wrestling]
"Mirroring" ("Copycats") [counter fire w/ water, etc.]
Duplication [copies of self; higher Trait means more copies]
Body Mastery (Elf-Ogres) [sinanju]
Surprise (Death Mimes) [SpecOps commando-like ambushes, ninpo)
Animal Imitation (Topia) [each topia type]
Fear and Shock (Terrors) [dim mak/distance death]

Magical Systems
Cantrips (small and weak) (everybody)
   Clothing
   Teleport (teleport to area, group teleport to area from different locations -- People only, not large objects like praire schooners)
   Telepathy (communitcate with everyone in "area")
   Recover from Death (takes time)
Wuxia-style (enhance hand to hand combat; short range) (experienced warriors only)
   Shadow/Sun Weapons
   Increase Melee Prowress
Majesty/Terror (a la Tolkein -- large but subtle) (rulers and legendary beings only)
   Bless Region/Army -- visible signs: thunderstorm, darkness/clear skies
   Curse Region/Army -- visible signs: blazing sun/snowstorm
Prophecy/Sorcery (a la Bible and Howard -- large and powerful) (prophets/sorcerors only)
   Plague Area, e.g., with frogs, boils, etc.
   Summon Angels/Demons a la Elric for specific magical effects
   Make Powerful Angel/Demon Items a la Elric

Professions

Bonesetter
Herbalist
Priest (Pagan)
Wizard (Pantheist)
Prophet (Biblical)
Sorcerer (a la Howard)
Duelist
Explorer
Bodyguard (for Praire Schooner, etc.)
Guardian (cf. Retro's Sentinels)
Preserver (cf. Vishnu)
Creator (Artist)
Destroyer (cf. Shiva)
Champion (of cause)
Paladins (never compromise, draw power from Taboo/Vows)
Exemplars (of Virtue)

Status
can be given to other players, but requires public announcement -- cf. pledging to one's leige lord.
categorized by one's professions -- one for fighting, one for cooking, etc.

Devotion

Prayer
Meditation
Ritual
Mental Focus
Movements
Speech
Song
Sacred Items
Asceticism
Taboo/Vow
Appeasement
Can be practiced with a group
Can be done quickly

[Palaskar]

Looked briefly at my post, and realized there were a couple issues that needed to be cleared up.

First, status is used instead of experience to advance things like martial arts ability, magical ability, etc. Status is gained through role-play ONLY at this pont in the game's design. Status can be given to other players to help them raise their ability in a given Trait (martial arts, magic, etc.)

Second, Devotion means the kind of religious magical ability one has. Most magic in The Fifth Hour is religious based (the exception being cantrips.) The list of things below Devotion is a list of possible modifiers for each kind of magic.

[Eero Tuovinen]

Pray, tell... what about the system? You've managed to expose pretty much of what could be called the systemic aspect of the game world. You however bypass completely the points of contact the players might possible have with these things. Or to ask it in another way, what will the players do here? I assume you're thinking of something philosophical (simulationist riffing or narrativist addressing, presumably), but I fail to see any mechanics for suggesting such. I expect that what you have will center around the question of "Which race/class has the coolest powers?" and "Where do I find someone to promote me in status?" The general MMORPG experience, in other words.

For what it is, though, your outline looks quite interesting. I'd lose any pretense of philosophy, though, or otherwise rethought my priorities to include something to focus the play on philosophical issues. As it is the world looks like quite nice for "... and the kitchen sink" type fantasy adventures.

[F. Scott Banks]

Hmmm, I'd warn against the MMORPG compatability.  This looks to be a decent role-playing game (although, to echo Euro, I'm not quite sure how it works as the description above is devoid of any mechanics).  I've found through my own project that blending roleplay with programming is difficult without a nigh-revolutionary approach to programming.  Since I'm not terribly innovative, I used an old approach in a new way, but overcoming the limitations of computer-based mechanics is difficult.

It also creates problems of it's own.  In designing a computer setting that can accomodate thousands of players, I created a computer setting that needs thousands of players.  I'm tweaking it and finding ways around these little problems, but it's still a handful.

Now, unlike many, I won't tell you it's impossible.  You're also at an advantage in that you're not taking an existing RPG and deciding that "Hey, this would be cool with hundreds upon hundreds of people all playing at the same time".

Unless you are...in which case stop.

If you're not, however, you have the unique privledge of designing what I like to call a community-based RPG.  These games are designed with "Massively Multiplayer" in mind.  They may work fine with the standard five-players, but they're structured to really hum with thousands of players.  Since this is a stated goal of yours, designing this game with this mindset isn't optional.  You might not call it "community-based" like I do (until I publish my first one, I don't think I'm allowed to invent gaming terms), but the basic premise is the same.  How do I structure a gameplay model around thousands of players instead of a handfull.

So while I won't shy you away from your goals, I will warn you that designing this for "MMORPG" playability isn't an eventual goal like deciding on glossy cover art, or purchasing that golden rocket yacht when you have your millions.  You've got to structure your rules around "massive" numbers of players, or the eventual transition to computer is going to be a rough one.

[Tobias]

I share the concerns of Eero and Wyldkarte.

Another thing I'm wondering about - say you do not abandon the philosophical aspect of the game. Many of the philosophies you have are based on real-world issues. However, mortality is a very strong influence on these concepts. And, in your world, ressurection is common. This will skew these philosophies greatly - unless you introduce something like amnesia. You may not mind the skewing - but you'd have to take it into account to make it believable.

In the case of the amnesia approach, you're not going to be able to do the 'prepare for the next life' philosophy - or at least, that philosophy's not based on factual knowledge of the ressurection, on either side of the realm.

Many of the 'modern problems' will stay similar, but some of them actually become more relevant  - so I won't comment on them at this time.

On the philosophies, though:

-- 1) To enjoy or experience life. Enjoy the "moment," the "journey." (Dragonlords )

IMHO, a very natural conclusion to those aware of ressurection/reincarnation (Hence: R/R)

1) Life is a mystery. (Terrors[Humans])

It sure is, but might become less with every R/R.

1) To contribute to something that is greater than ourselves. (Giants)

To what? For humans, making something lasting is very much a part of realising you won't be around yourself. Of course, if you WILL be around, making something lasting might actually be extra beneficial - especially if you can grant benefits to your new self this way.

1) To serve or worship God and/or prepare for the next (or after-) life. (Sun People )

Why? If you're aware of R/R, what makes the next one better than this one? Especially if you're going to reincarnate as a different species?

1) Life is a test. ([Ogres]Water-Buffalo Deer Elves)

Of what? And will you know in the end if you succeed?

2) Life is meaningless. (15) Bunyips

This could be logical result of the 'I'll be R/R anyway, no matter what I do' - but the reasoning's quite different from the normal path people take to that conclusion.

2) Life is a struggle. (Jotun)

For? You could just live this one, and know the next one would be different anyway.

2) To become self-actualized. (The Blind )

That could still work - staying 'driven' is tough, though.

2) To create your own meaning. (The People of the Word[Tatooed Men

Always an option.

2) Life is absurd or a joke. (The Half-Dead

Still possible.

I'm wondering - are you always the same race in the underworld/overworld? Or do you cycle through each one in turn? Is there something special (transcendant) once you've cycled through all possible species?

We're getting a lot of geography and skills, but very little to evaluate where it goes.

[Palaskar]

Sorry for the delay. Two reasons for it: 1) personal problems which I will not discuss here, and 2) nervousness. This game is my "baby," so to speak. I plan on writing at least one novel using this setting.

Ok, the game will be using the Signature generic RPG or a variant thereof with some standarized Traits. Think Talisanta's newest edition -- each race having the same set of attributes with some modifiers, plus some skills, which  Signature will both treat as just another set of Traits. Signature has Karma-based resolution, although the next edition will provide for Fortune-based resolution, should the players desire it.

Signature can be found at http://www.meant2be.150m.com/44index.html, but I'm having people pay for it right now, so really, I'll just try and describe it here. There's a much longer list of Signature's strengths on that page, should you go look, however.

In brief, Signature is a Trait-based system -- no attributes, no skills, no ads/disads, etc., just Traits -- that breaks down the traditional GM responsibilities into different roles. So you have the Conflict Resolution Master, the Chargen Master, the Story Master and the Setting Master. Multiple people can take on a given Master role. Unclebear called it "perfect for troupe play....Doing things that fit your character and the setting and genre is easy; doing things contradictory to those is hard. " A brief discussion is still on unclebear.com, way, way down on the page.

After hearing the positives and negatives of MMORPG-compatibility, I'll probably throw it out, because it screws up the philosophy, mainly through the ressurections. (BTW, incase you were wondering, I initally had people resurrect as the same race on the same world with the same body. When people are "throughly killed," they go to the opposite world, and stay there until "throughly killed" again. Being "thoroughly killed" erases all knowledge of the previous world.) I suppose I could go with the MMORPG of Middle Earth's approach which never actually kills people, but leaves them alive, but looted of possessions and money. Thoughts?

What I'm really aiming for is a world with the depth and breadth of Tolkein's Middle Earth or Robert Jordan's world.

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

Pray, tell... what about the system? You've managed to expose pretty much of what could be called the systemic aspect of the game world. You however bypass completely the points of contact the players might possible have with these things. Or to ask it in another way, what will the players do here? I assume you're thinking of something philosophical (simulationist riffing or narrativist addressing, presumably), but I fail to see any mechanics for suggesting such. I expect that what you have will center around the question of "Which race/class has the coolest powers?" and "Where do I find someone to promote me in status?" The general MMORPG experience, in other words.

For what it is, though, your outline looks quite interesting. I'd lose any pretense of philosophy, though, or otherwise rethought my priorities to include something to focus the play on philosophical issues. As it is the world looks like quite nice for "... and the kitchen sink" type fantasy adventures.

Thanks. Looking back, the setting really does have the Talislanta-like "...and the kitchen sink" feel, and to me, that's a good thing.

I was aiming at simulationist riffing on philosophy, but now I realize I have no damn idea how to do that.

My best ideas were to have conflicts in martial arts duels, magical threats  from differing magic types (remember, all magic except cantrips in this setting is based in some type of religion) such as Sorcerors a la Elric/Conan, and big wars. That's just not good enough. I mean, sure, Tolkien had the big threat of Sauron and the Orcs and whatnot as a metaphor for Evil and the price of power, but I don't think that comes across with my setting, really.

Oh, BTW, in "The Fifth Hour", the roles of Light and Dark are intended to be reversed. Dark is "more good," Light "more bad." For example, the Sun People were originally worked up as Aztec-style practitioners of human sacrifice. They were tolerated only because they were the only race strong enough to fight the "Deer-Elf-Ogre" things which I need a better name for. Similarly, the Jotuns are the Nazis of the Underworld, having conducted, in effect, nuclear testing on the land of the (now) Half-Dead.

Help, anyone?

[Eero Tuovinen]

After hearing the positives and negatives of MMORPG-compatibility, I'll probably throw it out, because it screws up the philosophy, mainly through the ressurections. (BTW, incase you were wondering, I initally had people resurrect as the same race on the same world with the same body. When people are "throughly killed," they go to the opposite world, and stay there until "throughly killed" again. Being "thoroughly killed" erases all knowledge of the previous world.) I suppose I could go with the MMORPG of Middle Earth's approach which never actually kills people, but leaves them alive, but looted of possessions and money. Thoughts?

Wyldkarde said it best. People on both sides of the electronical fence have pondered this, and it's far from trivial as a problem. If you really want to be the first in the whole friggin' world to write the seamless roleplaying game on a computer, go right ahead. Do not however underestimate the challenge, and in no case treat it as a supplementary feature; either focus on doing the crossover, or focus on doing the other features.

That said, I'm unsure about the best way to go about the resurrection thing. Traditionally MMORPGs have included simple, automatic resurrection, while tabletop games have not. Both have good reasons, and if you are intending to do both, it's quite tricky to balance on the matter. I personally favor strongly a hard-line no-resurrection solution, with characters "only" humiliating and causing pain to others and going mortal only in special situations. There's many different twists one could go with here, but they all leave the meaning of death intact. MMLRPGs are largely a joke as far as anything but simple resource control gamism goes largely because such key consepts as death is are left bereft of meaning (compared to tabletop, that is).

That being said, I'd suggest that you leave off all of these essentially logistical questions until the key points of the game are firmly fixed. I assume that you want resurrections so that a player does not lose a dying character? And you want resurrection to another world mainly for variety and because it's cool (which it is)? If these are the reasons, you can quite nicely take care of such a minor detail after first deciding on the philosophy matter.

What I'm really aiming for is a world with the depth and breadth of Tolkein's Middle Earth or Robert Jordan's world.

You should tell us more about what you mean with depth and breadth. I, for example, would consider Tolkien quite deep, while Jordan is utterly ridiculously shallow. You, on the other hand, probably use the words to mean that there are many details in the world or something like that? Many cultures, each with it's own legends, history and language, detailed ecosystem, that kind of thing? If this is the case, it's not that hard to achieve. Just start cranking out some fantasy matter.

I was aiming at simulationist riffing on philosophy, but now I realize I have no damn idea how to do that.

It's half the battle to recognize what you seek. Let's take a look how games traditionally seek to achieve the effect:

GM CONTROL: effectively every simulationist game ever written bases it's philosophical focus and themes on GM indoctrination. Ever read Vampire? Or CoC? Or anything else with a theme? All of these games include ample suggestions for the GM on how to focus the game on the philosophy at hand. Vampire, for example, deals with wholesale angst, and achieves the effect by putting the GM to work emphasizing the horribleness of being a vampire. The rules themselves are general superhero fare.

MECHANICAL EMPHASIS: Generally a little better designed game will show it's intended subject matter in it's mechanics. What the players do in the game is what the game is about. Ars Magica, for example, is about wizards because all it's mechanics are about them, and AD&D is about dungeon skirmishes for the same reason. There is nothing else to do in these games, after all. Give your game rules for philosophizing, and there you go...

REWARD SYSTEMS: Players of a sim game will generally look for character rewards. Give out rewards for philosophizing, and make those rewards pertinent to philosophizing. This one-two punch will largely ascertain that the players will philosophize.

My best ideas were to have conflicts in martial arts duels, magical threats  from differing magic types (remember, all magic except cantrips in this setting is based in some type of religion) such as Sorcerors a la Elric/Conan, and big wars. That's just not good enough. I mean, sure, Tolkien had the big threat of Sauron and the Orcs and whatnot as a metaphor for Evil and the price of power, but I don't think that comes across with my setting, really.

The general idea of philosophy actualizing as adventure is a sound one, you'll just have to figure out how to make it happen. It's not enough to put both in the game and say that the philosophy comes first. The adventure matter should be somehow connected and largely dependant on philosophy.

The simplest, roughest starting point of all could be the TROS spiritual attributes. Consider: if your swordmen were each given bonuses against the faith they hate, would they not make war against that particular faith, instead of any random critter they encounter?

That is only a starting point, though; after ensuring that the characters actually act generally towards their stated philosophy, you have to make that philosophy a key element. There are many options, but let's see what you've thought about it. I'll just throw out one possibility: what if there were a third party the swordsman had to rationalize his aggression to, when going to make holy war? Historically philosophy has commonly been a matter of rational argumentation for a view you hold for sentimental reasons, and you could build your game in the same way. Let the players pick and choose their opinions, and force them through mechanics to defend the resultant actions.

[F. Scott Banks]

It's too bad you've given up on your MMORPG aspirations, but from the sound of your game design, I can't really tell whether that's advisable or not.  You haven't given enough design for anyone to make a call on "Can't be done", "Hard to do" and "Already been done".

As far as ressurections making certain forms of gameplay meaningless, I've already solved that problem.  I won't repeatedly make references to my other project but a lot of the hills ahead of you have already been addressed there.  The common complains with MMORPG's have almost all been addressed.  Feel free to borrow heavily for your own design.  Since I'm just using the game to sell the novels (as opposed to trying to sell the game itself), I gots no problem with sharing design and mechanics.

Hey, I wanted to be the first in the world to make a roleplaying MMORPG.

Well, I don't mind a race.  But I'd advise you use the source material you keep referencing and come up with your own world and say to hell with the established way of doing things by people are familiar with those games.  It's dangerous and people will predict horrible failure for you, but to successfully create a Roleplay-Heavy MMORPG only to credit someone else because it's their brainchild (and don't expect to get any profits either) would be truly sad.  To repeat myself, it's all or nothing with a project that wants to do this.

Your focus on philosophy has me intrigued and I'd like to see where you're going with this.  I think that storytellers are going to make the biggest changes in this industry and your game has a lot of storytelling elements.  

Don't be so quick to toss out the idea of designing a game that stands outside of the paradigm.  So far, my game is turning out to be fairly open-ended and I was just trying to find a way around the "ressurection" problem originally.

[Palaskar]

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

That being said, I'd suggest that you leave off all of these essentially logistical questions until the key points of the game are firmly fixed.

Seems logical enough. I'll address this later on in this post.

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

You should tell us more about what you mean with depth and breadth. I, for example, would consider Tolkien quite deep, while Jordan is utterly ridiculously shallow. You, on the other hand, probably use the words to mean that there are many details in the world or something like that? Many cultures, each with it's own legends, history and language, detailed ecosystem, that kind of thing? If this is the case, it's not that hard to achieve. Just start cranking out some fantasy matter.

Yes, that's basically it. However, I also want to have the world as a metaphor for conflict between differing philosophical views a la Tolkein's Light vs. Dark. However, in addition to Light and Dark being somewhat reversed, The Fifth Hour is more pluralistic in philosophy -- there are no easy and simple answers.

The simplest, roughest starting point of all could be the TROS spiritual attributes. Consider: if your swordmen were each given bonuses against the faith they hate, would they not make war against that particular faith, instead of any random critter they encounter?

Signature handles Spiritual Traits just like any other Trait. I'm surprised that I didn't think of it myself. So, for example, you could give a Dragonlord-cultured character bonuses for following the "Life is a journey" view. It won't be that easy, but I don't think it would be that hard. I'm thinking along the lines of Ultima IV's Virtue system.

However, this still doesn't make the bonuses pertinent to  philosphizing. I suppose I could give bonuses also for confronting other philosophies, in the form of martial arts duels and holy wars.

Hey, I could allow people to "cross-class" in other philosophies, offering different bonuses -- each philosophy would give different powers, a la Ultima X -- but at the cost of specialization in their core philosophy which would ultimately give them the strongest powers.

Yeah, I like this last idea. I think it handles the mechanical aspect of philosophy well.

As for GM control...hmm.

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

All of these games include ample suggestions for the GM on how to focus the game on the philosophy at hand.

I suppose that for The Fifth Hour, the suggestions would center around ambigous moral situations. The sort of choices that in AD&D Paladins would have to make. Frex, the GM should set up conflicts between the characters' differing philosophies. Like Paladins, do they stick to their core philosophy and get bonuses, or deviate to do "the 'right' thing" and possibly get penalized?

Eero Tuovinen wrote:

I assume that you want resurrections so that a player does not lose a dying character? And you want resurrection to another world mainly for variety and because it's cool (which it is)? If these are the reasons, you can quite nicely take care of such a minor detail after first deciding on the philosophy matter.

Well, ressurections in a MMORPG are virtually a necessity because you can't improvise or fudge in a MMORPG. You can't throw a batch of pepper in a villian's face, causing him to fumble a spell and destroy himself, for example.

And to be honest, I want ressurection to another world for the shock value. (BTW, if you die of old age, you are considered "thoroughly dead" and go to the other world.) Basically, when contact between the two worlds was opened up recently in the metaplot, there was a lot of religious controversy. I mean, frex, people on the Overworld expect to go to Heaven and whatever, only to learn that Heaven is a frozen wasteland.

But thanks for saying the "other world ressurections" are cool. I never really thought that much about them.

WyldKarde wrote:

As far as ressurections making certain forms of gameplay meaningless, I've already solved that problem. I won't repeatedly make references to my other project but a lot of the hills ahead of you have already been addressed there. The common complains with MMORPG's have almost all been addressed. Feel free to borrow heavily for your own design. Since I'm just using the game to sell the novels (as opposed to trying to sell the game itself), I gots no problem with sharing design and mechanics.

Thanks a bunch! Could you give me a link?

Your focus on philosophy has me intrigued and I'd like to see where you're going with this. I think that storytellers are going to make the biggest changes in this industry and your game has a lot of storytelling elements.

Don't be so quick to toss out the idea of designing a game that stands outside of the paradigm. So far, my game is turning out to be fairly open-ended and I was just trying to find a way around the "ressurection" problem originally.

Thanks! The whole Status mechanic was originally designed to get around the whole "kill butterflies, farm monsters, and camp" paradigm of traditional MMORPGs. It was intended so characters could only advance by interacting with other PCs -- by beating them at martial arts duels, and fighting holy wars mainly. Also, you could gain Status by merely exploring new areas.

Right now, I think the Ultima X-style "philosophical powers" are a good start, but I want to get even farther away from traditional combat-centered MMORPG play. Some ideas that have recently occured to me are stealth-based play a la Daggerfall's thieves', spreading religions via miracles and the like, and some form of social "dueling" system like the one found in Lace & Steel.

I'll go search for your post.

[Palaskar]

WyldKarde, found your post. It'll take me a while to read through, but I'll get back to you ASAP.

[Palaskar]

I really like your guild system. I think I'll call them 'sects' if I adopt the concept -- 'guild' doesn't really fit my setting. The major problem I have with the guild system is that the RPG I'm using, Signature, is Trait-based rather than skill-based. While this works wonderfully for tabletop play, it doesn't seem to translate too well into CRPG mechanics. Really, the best I can do is give the Trait 'Sect X:3' for example, and some other Traits like Swordsman: 2, Hunter: 4, etc. Any suggestions here are welcome.

Clans sound good. I was going to adopt them anyway. Kings somehow escaped my notice, but I'd like to include them also. I also like signature weapons. I'd allow them to be created on character generation, but if people don't take that route, they must acquire them from crafters in game. They couldn't just spend Status to buy them.

I like that you have no 'essential' skills. I think I can work this in by having different types of Traits for the same job. This is basically what I'm doing with the martial arts styles of the various cultures. Now I simply have to extend it to different 'jobs.' So far I have the list from your posts:

bartering,
music and other entertainment,
art and other creative endeavours,
navigation abilities,
social interaction skills,
invention,

Anyone have anything to add to this list?

I'm not sure how I'll do bartering. Bartering makes more sense in a more primitive environment and certainly has more flavor than mere coinage. Perhaps I'll take the route of Legacy of the Ancients -- the two characters start with very different 'prices' (in this case, amounts of goods) and then dicker towards a price roughly midway between them. I'd add a modifier for Charisma and whatnot, though. Questions, comments?

Navigation seems irrelevant for the most part. I mean, both worlds have this big honkin' obelisk which casts a shadow of light or darkness. I don't know much at all about navigation, but it seems that the obelisks would make navigation very easy.

Social interaction skills. Hmm. I like the take of the new Bard's Tale game -- instead of speaking, you adopt a 'stance.' Basically, you have an angry stance and a friendly stance. I'd expand the number of stances, of course.
I also like the idea from Lace & Steel which views social interaction as another kind of combat.

What I really need here is a list of social traits for use in social challenges. Anyone?

Invention seems damn complex, particularly in my setting. Not only do you have Stone Age cultures like the Sun people with Aztec-style obsidian knives, but you have leftover advanced tech, Gamma-World-style, for the Terrors of the Old city, and weird, advanced magic for the Jotuns, -and- 'clockwork' tech for the Blind. Suggestions are appreciated.

I like the original idea you had on music -- mixing and layering a few basic songs which give specific effects. This was done in the Bard's Tale series of CRPGs. Perhaps I could fit it in the setting like a Sub-Continental Indian raga (sp?), which follow a predetermined, ritualized pattern (as far as I know.)

Color and weaving are very neat. I was thinking of allowing characters to 'weave' shadows by cantrips -- this is particularly important for Terrors, since their mystique creates their aura of fear and terrifying reputation. This of course, might make weaving non-essential -- then again, it might make weaving more important. Only the poor, desperate, and feared would turn to shadow weaving. Sounds good.

If I take up the Legacy system, I'll probably have to change it to the 'protege' system since some of the reproductive methods of my races are so damn weird. Giants, for example, must quest to the Old City on the Overworld and find a Soul Gem (isolinear crystal, actually, but the players aren't supposed to know that) to place in the forehead of a body made from wood, bone and sinew, and then kiss that body on the lips, bringing the 'ruah' or 'breath of life' to it. Since this is so hard to do, providing and creating for the next generation is of central importance to Giant culture. Hence, their philosophy that the meaning of life is "To contribute to something that is greater than ourselves." The other races (should) work like this too.

Food and hunger don't work too well with some of my races. Giants, for example, don't eat -- but then they don't heal naturally, either -- they must be repaired by someone with the appropriate knowledge. Dragonlords, on the other hand, have a ferocious appetite, but can eat almost anything (the exception being dirt, cloth, and other organic non-foods.)

Leaving your world most devoid of sentient life is a neat explanation for PCs. I'm not sure if I should adopt this. The 'great disaster' is almost a staple of fantasy worlds, something which I'd like to avoid. On the other hand, how do I explain PCs?

I was thinking of having PCs as 'guardian spirits' similar to those of ancient Mesopotamia (sp?). This would explain wierd behavior resulting from login, logout, linkdeath, inter-player communication, and player restrictions. The MUD I'm familiar with (RetroMud) has "Sentinels" which police the PCs, issuing warrants that make NPCs try to arrest the PCs and similar stuff. No 'superuser' powers though. That's too easy to be abused.

[F. Scott Banks]

Hmmm, I'm not too familiar with trait-based character development.  I know my system has something we haven't touched on called "Merits".  These are like blanket skills that evolve out of the way characters play.  Players who learn certain skills within a talent, or who take more than five skills under a single talent will gain bonuses towards related skills.  

For example, a character who kills lots of dragons will eventually gain the "Dragonslayer" Merit.  This gives the character the skills of Find Vital Organs: Nonhuman and Exotic Monster Knowledge: Dragons.  Even if the character is only marginally skilled as a hunter, they will be able to track dragons as though they were masters.  Also, regardless of whatever weapon they are using, they will wield it with uncanny skill, when fighting a dragon.  

Basically, Merits are another word for traits.  They're modifiers based entirely upon the way players develop their character.  In the example above, if a character kills dragons every chance they get, it will become something they're known for.  The game experience will also change for them with regards to this single-mindedness of character.

Hmmm, did I just find a way to encourage roleplay in a computer RPG?

Hmmm, combat is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  Since I eventually need to address it in the other post, keep your eyes peeled for when I drop that system.  It employs multiple "stances" so characters can customize a set of combat skills that best suit their playing style.  If you play a rogue who hits, runs, then hits again, there are dozens of skills that encourage that.  If you're an honorable swordsman who fights one-on-one in bouts of skill vs. skill, then that is encouraged as well.  The combat system can best be described as allowing characters to embrace combat "theories" or "strategies".  The skills themselves are just a bunch of nifty moves, but when combined under a coherent "school" of fighting, they start to reflect the personality of the player utilizing them.

If you wanna look at social interaction given stats and die rolls, I think Ravien's system is definitely worth looking at.  It's a good system and certainly playable for games where society dictates how players act in certain situations.  I apply it to my NPC's although I let my human players come to their own conclusions regarding each other.

Navigation...well, you know your world best.  If there's a giant "You are here" landmark that can be seen from anywhere, then I don't suppose you need anything there.

Invention was something I'd have had to do anyway.  If your game doesn't need it, then don't bother.  Besides, the vastly different tech levels is a monster to play well.  If you wanted to play it though, I'd look to foreign exchange rates for a tip.  There, what's valuable in one area can be different from what's valuable in another area and all the values still come together to form a cohesive whole.  Knowledge within one culture can be viewed and valued differently with regards to another.  It ain't impossible, but it's a bitch to get working right.

Music...uhhh, makes my head hurt but if you wanted to implement it, just break the music down into it's mathematical values and go nuts from there.  Eventually, I'll have to give the bards what they want and allow them to weave spells from music the way mages can weave spells from the magical essence flowing through all things.  I painted myself into a corner on that one.  I say I'm not going to do it, but the game engine already supports that very system.  Spellweaving is already just like songwriting.  I just don't wanna have to run quality control to make sure the spells actually sound good.

With regards to food, reproduction, and the players role in your game world, those are pretty much up to you to mold how you see fit.  As long as you have a good plot device for what you're doing, you'd be surprised at what you can slip past the RPG police.

[Palaskar]

Yes, Merits are basically what I was looking for. I'm still not quite sure how to implement it in a crunchy, MMORPG way. I'm thinking I could have broad categories of Traits -- Melee Combat, Tracking, Knowledge, etc. and then cross-reference them with things like Dragonlords, Giants, etc. Probably I could add yet another level of cross-referencing with 'Styles' of 'theories/strategies.'

And yes, you just found another way to encourage roleplay in a CRPG.

I'll go search for Ravien's system in awhile. Have to excercise.

As for invention...well, if I implement it, I'll probably go the way of Questron/Master of Orion 2. Basically, you have one or more predetermined tech paths.

[Palaskar]

Crystal -Memory and learning potential
Fluid -Perception, analytical ability, logic, quick-thinking, complexity of thought
Flame -Emotional aptitude, sensitivity, compassion, interpersonal understanding
Beauty -External and internal physical attractiveness
Influence -Persuasiveness, force of will, influence on the fabric of existence

There are 8 skills important for social interaction: Affront, Calm, Charm, Coerce, Diplomacy, Discipline, Sense Motive, and Perform.

I like your social attributes and your skills. Can I borrow them for the Fifth Hour?

As for the rest of your system, I've modified it somewhat for the system and setting.

Instead of Egos, characters in the Fifth Hour have Passions.

Core Ego is replaced by Raw Passion. Raw Passion gives a modifier equal to its rank (+3 to -3.) However, under certain circumstances, Raw Passion can generate Madness. This is primarily through learning Sorcery or facing Terrors (think CoC) or through Pendragon-like methods (I have to check my copy of Pendragon for the exact rules.)

Madness, when acquired is equal to Raw Passion, provided the Raw Passion is positive. So someone with Raw Passion of 3 gets Madness of 3, someone with Raw Passion of 1 gets Madness of 1, and someone with a negative Raw Passion gets no Madness whatsoever!

Social Ego is replaced by Passions. A positive Passion towards a given person means you like them; a negative Passion towards a given person means you dislike them. At +3 Passion, you fall in love; at -3 Passion, you fall "in hate."

Rolls made in the vicinity of the person (in the same room if indoors, or within 600ft outdoors) get a bonus/penalty equal to the rank of the appropriate Passion, and to rolls made against the person (regardless of whether the roll will be beneficial or detrimental) get a penalty/bonus equal to the rank of the appropriate Passion. That is, positive Passion gives a bonus to rolls made in the vicinity of the person, but a penalty to rolls against that person, while negative Passion give a penalty to rolls made in the vicinity of the person, but a bonus to rolls against that person.

Passions between 2 and -2 inclusive move towards zero at the rate of 1 per game month. That is, +2 or -2 will be zero at the end of two months, for example.

If someone is "in love" or "in hate" their appropriate Passions do not deteriorate at all!

The rest of the mechanics work as per Ravien's system:

Love-The only way to remove this Passion is to lower it to 0.

-Your Love Ego becomes linked with the other person. Any time that person takes Passion damage from another person, you take the same damage to the same Passion. For example, say your Love Ego is keyed to a girl named Jane, and some other girl named Sarah insults Jane, causing Jane's Passion towards Sarah to take a 2-point "wound" (in other words, making Jane feel bad about herself in relation to Sarah). Your Passion towards Sarah would also take a 2-point "wound", regardless of whether or not Sarah used to make you feel good.
-If you ever meet another person who has a Love Ego keyed to the same person as your own Love Ego, your Passion towards this new person instantly becomes -2.
-If the person to whom your Love Ego is keyed ever dies, your Passion for their killer instantly becomes -3, which just so happens to be...

Hate. The only way to remove this Passion is to lower it to 0.

-Your Hate Ego becomes linked with the other person. Any time that person takes Passion damage from another person, you gain the damage to the same Passion. For example, say your Hate Ego is keyed to a girl named Jane, and some other girl named Sarah insults Jane, causing Jane's Passion a 2-point wound (in other words, making Jane feel bad about herself in relation to Sarah). Your Passion towards Sarah would then have 2-point bonus, regardless of whether or not Sarah used to make you feel bad.
-If you ever meet another person who has a Hate Ego keyed to the same person as your own Hate Ego, your Passion towards this new person instantly becomes +2.
-If the person to whom your Hate Ego is keyed ever dies,  your Passion for their killer instantly becomes +1.

About Passion "wounds": Signature doesn't use a hit-point-like system for damage. Instead, characters take specific wounds, like "broken leg: 2." A 1-point wound is a minor wound that gives a -1 modifier to the appropriate actions, a 2-point wound is a major wound that gives a -2 modifier to the appropriate actions, and a 3-point totally incapcitates the character, usually through knockout or death.

In any given case, the highest modifier is taken and the rest ignored. So if the character has the Trait, Swordsman: 3 and a 2-point wound, so long as their Swordsman Trait is "in play," ,i.e., combat, the character may ignore the 2-point wound.

[Palaskar]

Hey there, since no-one's replied, I think I should mention that I need help with "Styles." Basically, I have three tiers of Traits right now: Broad Skills (Melee Combat, Tracking, Knowledge, etc.), Race Traits (Giant, Dragonlord, etc.) and Styles (ways of doing things.)

I figure Broad Skills will be easy enough to come up with (I can just take a look a HERO's skill categories), but I can't seem to come up with Styles that can apply to every Broad Skill.

Help?