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Author Topic: Sword myths, help me out  (Read 40550 times)
Richard_Strey
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« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2004, 02:32:43 AM »

Well, you know, having a fuller (or even a few of them) running down  your blade makes it lighter. The idea is to get the lightest blade possible while still retaining enough structural integrity.

Edit: A grate running down the middle (see later thrusting "Bastard Swords") is essentially the same: If you look at the cross-section of the blade, it is nothing but a fuller cut in the middle and stuck together the other way around.
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Valamir
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« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2004, 03:10:19 AM »

The most likely purpose for the fuller is to add rigidity to the blade in exactly the same way as corrugation.

It may also make the blade lighter...but I have a feeling that the method of construction of a sword (beating it into shape with a hammer) simply means that the metal that would have been located in the fuller has been displaced to elsewhere in the blade.  It would only make it lighter if the fuller were actually carved out and the metal from it removed, which I don't think is the case.

I suspect that the lighter idea came about from replica people who cast their blades and noticed they could use less metal if they put bigger fullers in.


Salamander:  huh?
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Ashren Va'Hale
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Posts: 427


« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2004, 07:05:51 AM »

think I-beam... it strengthens and lightens the blade.

I hate the blood groove myth, I have placed this on the very top of my "myths to bust" list, right next to 30 pound swords made of unobtanium.
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Irmo
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Posts: 258


« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2004, 07:26:01 AM »

Quote from: Valamir
The most likely purpose for the fuller is to add rigidity to the blade in exactly the same way as corrugation.

It may also make the blade lighter...but I have a feeling that the method of construction of a sword (beating it into shape with a hammer) simply means that the metal that would have been located in the fuller has been displaced to elsewhere in the blade.  It would only make it lighter if the fuller were actually carved out and the metal from it removed, which I don't think is the case.

I suspect that the lighter idea came about from replica people who cast their blades and noticed they could use less metal if they put bigger fullers in.


I think you overlook several possibilities. First, the metal could be displaced to somewhere it can easily be cut or ground off. Second, a lighter weight can also be achieved by using less material to begin with. Your argument suggests that the material was displaced in a fashion that increases density somewhere else on the blade, which I find somewhat hard to believe.
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Mike Holmes
Acts of Evil Playtesters
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Posts: 10459


« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2004, 07:41:41 AM »

Irmo, you're saying the same thing as Ralph (he's not saying anything about density). You're both implying that fullers are a way to increase rigidity without having to increase the overall mass of the sword proportionally. The term "lighter" is problematic here as it's relative. What should be said is that a sword with fullers is more rigid than another sword of the same mass and otherwise similar geometry. Assuming that the theory is correct at all.

Mike
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Drifter Bob
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« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2004, 10:09:32 PM »

Quote from: Sir Mathodius Black
Regarding what Tobias said about Katana's not being the strongest and sharpest swords, I was under the distinct impression that they were.  They were certainly more effective than european swords for a number of reasons.  First, they are folded and not made of cast iron, making them much less brittle and more durable, not to mention that when a european sword is struck, strong vibrations go down to the hilt making it very uncomfortable.  That also gave them a much longer lasting sharpness because of all of the "edges" folded into the weapon.  As far as speed, I'm not sure, but i would guess that training has more to do with that than the making of the weapon.    
Also, ive seen guys with katanas slice through trees with a diameter of six inches.  How many european swords can do that?

As far as ninjitsu goes, of course there is a lot of exageration from the movies but there are some people out there that can do some pretty crazy stuff.  Ill post a specific instance when i have time to look it up.


You really need to go back to the drawing board amigo.  Cast iron?

DB
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Jake Norwood
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« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2004, 08:23:36 AM »

Quote from: Sir Mathodius Black
Also, ive seen guys with katanas slice through trees with a diameter of six inches.  How many european swords can do that?


SMB-

I've seen the best cutting katanas out there (and handled one). I've seen record-making cuts into 2 x 4s with a katana, and I've seen a blunt german-style longsword match it. I've seen a blunt arming sword cut down an 8" diameter tree in three strikes.

As a general rule, never confuse the objects in the knife store or in a Museum Replicas or reinactment catolog with swords any more than the faux-star-wars blasters are really guns.

Jake
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Irmo
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Posts: 258


« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2004, 08:37:34 AM »

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm
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Paganini
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« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2004, 10:06:59 AM »

Just to build on what Jake said, katanas are built a lot differently than western swords, and typically weigh much less. The sword-testing exercises that were mentioned earlier are tests in *cutting.* They're performed on material that is suitable for being cut (porous bamboo bundles, mostly). Katan's don't chop very well at all. If you try to fell down a tree with a Katana, you will ruin it in no time.

The kind of swords Jake is talking about have a lot more weight - up to three or four pounds more, sometimes - and are much better at chopping through dense material (say, trees, frozen pumpkins) with that kind of momentum than katana's are.
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Irmo
Member

Posts: 258


« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2004, 12:10:15 PM »

A german longsword can't have three to four pounds more than a katana, since that would mean the katana is weightless ;)
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Paganini
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« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2004, 12:23:11 PM »

Well, sometimes it seems like katanas are weightless. Mine weighs like 1.5 - 2 pounds I think, and it's a crappy one. Some of the bastard and two-handed swords weighed as much as 5 pounds. You get some serious chopping power with that. And, say, a 4-pound falchion is basically a huge heavy-duty machete.
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Irmo
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Posts: 258


« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2004, 12:26:07 PM »

Here's some real stats for swords:

http://www.palus.demon.co.uk/Sword_Stats.html
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Paganini
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« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2004, 12:40:29 PM »

Of course, most katanas weigh around 400 - 500 pounds, as you can see if you view the stats on this page. This info comes direct from the manufacturer too.

/me feels happy to put yet another myth to rest.
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coryblack_666
Member

Posts: 28


« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2004, 03:30:24 PM »

yea, but because of the way those 500lb katana's are made, you can swing the maround like nothing.
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Cory
Vagabond Elf
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Posts: 23


« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2004, 02:04:36 PM »

I believe the blood groove story actually comes out of the Second World War, where American bayonets were badly designed and would get stuck in things very easily.  The problem was widespread enough that U.S. troops were actually trained to shoot the guy they'd just stabbed to jolt the bayonet free.

But I'll admit that's entirley anecdotal, not having seen a WWII U.S. Army training manual.
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