Character creation while playing

[Itse]

I have an idea for a con game, which I would like (hope, wish...) to refine into something I can GM at Ropecon (23.-25. 7. in Espoo, Finland). The idea is something like this:

A game where character creation is a part of the gaming process, not something done beforehand. The idea is to make character creation a bit like the way characters are presented in movies: first you just see someone, not knowing who he is. You make assumptions based on what you see. Some of those assumptions are right, some are proved wrong, or have surprising twists. As the story continues, you see more and more of this character and start to know him.

Example
You see a guy in uniform and in a cop car. Okay, he's a cop. There's another cop sitting beside him, who calls him Johnny. They are pretty young, and based on their chitchat they're buddies. The partner is called Jimmy. Johnny and Jimmy go into a shop to collect some money of a shopkeeper. Okay, they seem to be dirty cops. That's saying something.

You see a young woman, with very little make up, sitting behind a bank counter. There's a label that says "Jane". Now we have a character called Jane, who works at a bank.

Johnny and Jimmy go the bank. While they are waiting in line, you see a nervous looking man in a suit entering the bank. Jane and the man look at each other; it looks like they recognize each other. Now the man pulls out a gun and shouts that this is a robbery. Johnny hits the ground, while Jimmy tries to pull out his own gun, but drops it. The gun goes off.

Now we know there's a bank robbery going on, we know there's Johnny and Jimmy who based on their chitchat seem like nice guys, but who are also dirty cops. We know Johnny's somewhat of a coward (maybe), and that Jimmy's clumsy. There's Jane who has something to do with the robber, and there's the robber, who doesn't look too professional. And so on...

Now, what I wanted to go after is not just freeform collective storytelling, but instead I want to create characters, preferably even to the point that they have character sheets which are being filled out as the game goes on.

I want this to be a certain type of a game; basicly I'm pretty sure I want to go with the modern day robbery scene, or some sort of thriller/drama. In any case, I will provide/decide some starting points. Also, each player has his or her own character to create and play.

Preferrably most of the action is between PC's, so very little NPC's should be used. I'm not sure who should control them; only the GM or players and GM, or maybe just the players.

I was considering using this (Chaos & Order, it's a pdf-file) mechanism for at least the character description mechanism, and maybe also as a conflict-solving mechanism.

But, I think I'll need something more to turn this into something that could work. Obviously this will need cooperative players who are into the idea, but I doubt that will be a problem.

I need something to control the character creation process so that they will actually advance in the desired way. I don't want players just coming up and explaining their characters right at the start. How to balance the advancement of the actual storyline and the character creation? How to balance one players freedom in personal history (events that have taken place before, NPC's that exist) without giving a player too much control over the game world. (I want them to concentrate on _their_ character... actually, the last part doesn't feel like much of a problem...)

How to combine the will to actually make the characters "stats" matter system-wise and the need to use a system before we really know everything about the character?


Ideas? Suggestions? Comments?

[Ben Lehman]

I have a (very early draft) of a system that does exactly this up on my webpage.  It's also diceless, for odd historical reasons.  It may be too complex for your purposes, but it might give you ideas.

http://relevance.dyn.dhs.org:4398/tsuu/rpg/cryedl.html

[Eero Tuovinen]

A game where character creation is a part of the gaming process, not something done beforehand. The idea is to make character creation a bit like the way characters are presented in movies: first you just see someone, not knowing who he is. You make assumptions based on what you see. Some of those assumptions are right, some are proved wrong, or have surprising twists. As the story continues, you see more and more of this character and start to know him.

As a strange coincidence, my IGC game Battle of Frozen Waste was largely predicated on the same idea. I wanted characters that would only be defined through play, with the players choosing in play which things their characters are good at and whatnot. Imagine my chargrin when Mike pointed it out to me that yes, I managed to emulate Universalis quite closely. Strange how blind one can be.

Anyway, check Battle out. In general I'm quite fond of the idea of losing character creation alltogether, so I'll probably return to this matter some time yet.

[Victor Gijsbers]

By a mad twist of fate, my past three days have been spent furiously thinking about a game in which character creation is not something done beforehand, but cannot in any way be discerned from playing the game. Nevertheless, I'm quite sure the way I handle it will not help you at all: the players always know as much about their characters as their characters know about themselves (as good as nothing, at the start); almost the only action the characters - bodiless shades floating around in the place where the great tragedy that binds them together took place - can take is remembering something from the past. That's quite inappropriate for your situation and setting, and the kind of play you want.

So let us look at your case. I'm not quite sure how you envisage playing your game. On the one hand, you wish the players to give the plot unexpected twists by revealing something unknown about their character; but on the other hand, you do not wish to give them too much control over the game. Does this mean that they can only think up character background that enhances, say, their effectiveness at certain tasks? In that case you might easily work with a pool of 'background'-points, which can be used to buy skills whenever they are needed, provided the player tells a good tale about the character's history that makes it likely he has that skill. But if the revelations about the character are to be the seed for real plot twists - as I was led to suppose from you robbery example - then it seems to me unavoidable that the players have a huge amount of control over the story. In that case, I would suggest a reward mechanism that gives the players narration power if they think up an interesting new twist on their character.

So maybe you could tell me a bit more about the way your game should play. The extended example does not really make clear what kind of things you expect the players to do.

[TonyLB]

Let me recommend highly to you the Game Theory thread Game design and psychology.

It addresses (in part) the way that pre-game stages like character design help to set the stage for the game by letting people warm up their imagination engines.  While this process is obviously much foreshortened in a Con Game, I think the insights might still be helpful.

[timfire]

Let me recommend highly to you the Game Theory thread Game design and psychology.

It addresses (in part) the way that pre-game stages like character design help to set the stage for the game by letting people warm up their imagination engines.  While this process is obviously much foreshortened in a Con Game, I think the insights might still be helpful.

I don't believe Emily's thread suggests that improvisational play is somehow 'not as good' as games with pre-game development. Emily just says that people need some sort of warm-up.

I think this sort of chargen can work fine, as long as you're mindful of the warm-up factor. Since this is intended as a Con game, I see a couple of different options for a 'warm-up.' I think a short pre-game discussion of people's expectations and desires for the game would work. Alternatively, I think some sort of designated 'development' phase (whether it be informal or formally structured) where you give players an opportunity to interact and define themselves before the primary conflict is introduced, would work.

[TonyLB]

Yep.  I wasn't trying to imply that improvisation play was inferior.  But the warm-up issues are very worth-while.  Your idea of the development phase would be neat, particularly if the different phases were supported with different reward systems.

Perhaps the first phase (defining character) rewards good play (for various definitions of "good") would give the player more character skills to operate with in the second phase (addressing conflict).

[Itse]

Victor had many questions:

on the one hand, you wish the players to give the plot unexpected twists by revealing something unknown about their character; but on the other hand, you do not wish to give them too much control over the game.

Pretty much.

Let's put it this way: players can freely control their characters, pretty much control the plot through the characters, but they have only limited control over the gameworld. This much is pretty traditional, actually.

What I want  is game in which is about who the characters are and what goes on between them, and I want the focus to be as much on the process of how the characters are revealed to the persons they are to be as big a deal as who they are. (Hope that makes sense.)

I'm not quite sure how you envisage playing your game.

Well, that is a bit of a problem, isn't it, since I'm not quite sure either. I have a vision, but it's still slightly blurry.

Basic idea is, that the gameflow is pretty much just the characters interacting with each other, to keep the focus very tight. Of course there needs to be strong plot elements to bring the characters together and create at least verbal conflicts. I'm aware that this sounds like a high immersion game, but that's not what I'm after.

Thing is, the normal immersionistic approach would be to create well written characters with strong emotional conflicts, pretty much like a typical (Nordic scene) LARP. This just doesn't usually bring about very interesting twists and turns. I'm not looking for high character immersion, (more like situation immersion), but an interesting story and an interesting way to present the characters.

My basic problem is, that I'm thinking that some sort of a mechanism to bring some structure into the building of the "plot" would propably be good, but I'm not sure what it is that I want/need. That's basicly why I took it up here, hoping that people could point ideas to me (or ask questions which will set my mind on a right track.)

The basic character creation of C&O allows for straighforward point limits to character creation (except for personal traits), which I think is a good thing. This becomes a resource for the players, one which they'll propably want to use sparingly. That might be enough to make the players define their characters piece at a time, since they'll propably want to save points for something interesting/useful at the end.

Does this mean that they can only think up character background that enhances, say, their effectiveness at certain tasks?

I'm more interested in characteristics than enhancements. I'm also very interested in characters motivations; what makes them tick, so to speak. (But no, I don't want to use TRoS :)

[Victor Gijsbers]

Ok, just a wild idea.

Use a simple fortune-based mechanic for normal resolution. Rolling a d10 against some difficulty number set by you (the GM) would be perfect; give them a bonus or penalty for already revealed background. So, suppose that shooting someone is normally difficulty 6. Now, if the player has already revealed the character to be the kind of person that can shoot well (a policeman, a soldier) or does so while announcing his action, give him a +2 bonus. If the player has already revealed the character to be the kind of person that cannot shoot wel (a professional actor, or whatever) give him a -2 penalty. Announce all of this clearly, so that it is clear that there is a _danger_ in revealing your background (it may count against you later on), but also an incentive (it can really help you in some situations). Hopefully, this leads to step-by-step character revelation.

In addition, give all players 3 Plot Twist Counters, or whatever. Whenever they botch a roll they really do not want to miss, they can spend a PTC to change their failure to a success. But this _must_ be accompanied by a revelation about the character's background that gives a whole new tiwst to the plot. So, if Jack fails in his roll to avoid being shot by the bankrobber, he can save his character's life by telling - for instance - that he is actually in league with the bankrobber.

[Itse]

(I already tried to post this, but since it seems to have disappeared...)

Victor:

Use a simple fortune-based mechanic for normal resolution.

Yes, this was my plan.

In addition, give all players 3 Plot Twist Counters, or whatever. Whenever they botch a roll they really do not want to miss, they can spend a PTC to change their failure to a success. But this _must_ be accompanied by a revelation about the character's background that gives a whole new tiwst to the plot.

Thank you. Sounds good, and this is exactly the type of suggestion I was hoping for. I'm not sure if this is the perfect one (it might be :), so other ideas are also very much welcome.

[greyorm]

This may or may not help, but the 1st Edition Immortal game begins with this idea: you are an immortal who has been sleeping for centuries in a succession of false mortal identities. At the begining of the game, you don't know who you are/were, or anything about the supernatural world you are a part of. As you play, you can spend points of Memory to purchase skills and abilities on the fly, as necessary, fleshing out your character and defining him (and his past, his personality, his beliefs and loyalties) through this action.

Now, the game itself doesn't support this trajectory of play very well, it is offered simply as "an option" and most groups just pay out up front (ie: pre-game) for their character abilities, skills, supernatural talents and such, and most play ends up being very traditional "superhero mystery/combat" type of play (ie: oh here's something to fight, we kick its ass; look, a clue to the big mystery; here's something else to fight; another clue! etc) -- so, I'm not recommending it as a base to build from, other than the base idea, which I think has excellent potential.