[GroupDesign] - System and Setting brainstorm.

[Jediblack]

And what if the story of these parallel worlds did spring sort of "clan" of Archivist? I mean... there are good archivist that search for truth, bad archivist that search for power.. and so on... (metaplot?)

Ok, the host is almost unaware, small headache, bad dream... and faster decay, pale skin, hair loss: they are used up!

Ok the idea that archivist can't go in and out a being at will. Machanics needed

[LordSmerf]

Is there anyone over the Archivists (do they serve a higher entity), or are they independent agents?  Are Rogues defined by the fact that they do not work for that Agent or that they work for some other Agent instead?

How do you become an Archivist?  Does it matter?

What limits do the Archivist's have?  What can they do to/with a host?  What requirements are met by the Host and what by the Archivist?

Food for thought...

Thomas

[Andrew Morris]

Ok, the host is almost unaware, small headache, bad dream... and faster decay, pale skin, hair loss: they are used up!

Or perhaps it's nothing so obvious. It could be along the lines of effects that seem within the realm of possibility. "Wow, I can't believe I ripped that steel bulkhead open with my bare hands! It's amazing what adrenaline will do to you." Maybe those physical effects are what happens to the hosts of the anti-Archivists (assuming, of course, that the Archivists are "good guys")

Is there anyone over the Archivists (do they serve a higher entity), or are they independent agents?

I like it better assuming that they have their own society, with one of them directing their efforts. The most learned one? The most honorable one?

Are Rogues defined by the fact that they do not work for that Agent or that they work for some other Agent instead?

I'd suggest that rogue Archivists are just, essentially, Archivist criminals -- they don't follow the laws of their society. You might be working with a rogue and never know it. It's not like a political or religious affiliation.

How do you become an Archivist?  Does it matter?

Hmm...I don't think it does matter, at least not yet. I'm assuming it's some form of mental discipline or learning that allows a mortal to transcend the limitations of the physical plane. But there's a price for everything, of course.

What limits do the Archivist's have?  What can they do to/with a host?  What requirements are met by the Host and what by the Archivist?

Maybe the don't have limits, from a human perspective. Their only limitations are self-imposed or result from intervention by others of their power level?

Here's what I'm thinking of for energizing powers, right off the bat:
1. Enhanced physical ability
2. Flashes of insight (the Archivist communicating knowledge directly to the host, like giving a three year old the ability to understand black holes)
3. Telepathic and telekinetic abilities
4. Resistance to damage (not sure about this one, don't know if it makes sense...but then, who says it has to?)
5. Influencing emotions and gut instincts ("Hmm, I know the manual says cut the red wire, but I've just got this feeling that I need to cut the green one instead.")

Maybe energizing a host means the Archivist (or anti-Archivist) is somewhat concealed from others of their kind? Maybe that's why the do it in the first place, so as not to stand out to the enemy? The more competant the host, the less the energizing being has to use their powers (which, of course can be detected by others of their kind).

[Sydney Freedberg]

Lots of neat ideas flying. Some thoughts:

1. Archivists as hidden vs. overt presences
Recommendation: Let the Archivist (i.e. the player) choose. There's a scale from "passive observation through Host's senses" to "subtle boosts to Host's power or flashes of intuition" to "Host manifests frickin' superpowers" to "you moron, let me drive" (total possession). Of course, the more blatant the Archivist is about empowering the Host, the more likely the Host is to suffer all the nasty effects JediBlack talks about, from "bad dreams and headaches" to "hair loss and illness" to "screaming lunatic" to "corpse." Presumably evil Archivists don't care, but the PCs should.
So there's a constant temptation to ramp up your level of empowering of and control over the Host, tempered by the danger of burning out the Host -- who, remember, is another player's character (even if only for one session) and thus someone you have an out-of-game incentive to care about!
This definitely would count as one of those "self-imposed restrictions" of morality or philosophy that Andrew Morris was talking about.
{EDIT: And it would also be a good place to use a Blackjack-style mechanic where you want to go as high as you can without going over some set limit, in this case the Host's capacity to endure your power-ups. There's room for a GM vs. player bluffing mechanic here, a cool idea I recall someone having}

2. Archivists, Anti-Archivists, Gods, and Devils
Are the Archivists working for a Higher Power, or simply a self-governing secret order? Are the anti-Archivists working for a Power of Evil, or just renegades?
Recommendation: Again, let each gaming group choose as part of their campaign design. If you want to do a "guide the nation through several generations" game, then you don't need a Higher Power or an anti-power {EDIT: and bad-guy Archivists are just renegades, not an organized opposing force}. If you want a huge cosmic battle between Good and Evil in the Manichean mode (i.e. the Devil is God's equal, not just a fallen angel), then you definitely want Higher Powers on both sides. {EDIT: And each Power should have an organized army of Archivists, rather than bad guys just being rogues}.

3. Do Good Archivists and Bad Archivists come from different worlds?
This is Jediblack's idea about "clans."
Recommendation: Again, let each gaming group choose. I dislike "splats" in the White Wolf style, but they're a useful tool for many players. So I'd recommend that at some point in the project we make up a big ol' bunch of parallel worlds, Kewl Powerz, archetypes of Archivist, and Higher Powers, plus rules for creating your own -- and then let each game group pick what worlds, powers, and types of Archivists and Powers they want in their campaign. Some groups may just pick a fixed package out of the book, others may mix-and-match ("Chinese menu"), others may design their own everything from scratch.

4. How do you become an Archivist?
Recommendation: You die.
Maybe you have to be really enlightened in life. Maybe you have to be picked by an existing Archivist or a sponsoring Higher Power. Maybe you were a Host who got burned out by an Archivist who pushed too hard and then felt responsible. Maybe any of these is a valid option depending on the game group.
But regardless of details, I'd lean strongly to saying that Archivists are, for all practical purposes, ghosts. The themes of loss, alienness vs. residual humanity, and temptation (to take over someone else's body and return to mortal life) this creates should allow for some really interesting roleplay.

[Andrew Morris]

As much as I like the Archivist concept, maybe we should spend some time thinking up other ideas, rather than just fleshing this one out more. That's what brainstorming is for, after all. Come up with a hundred ideas, throw away the 99 bad ones, and run with the one great one. Anyone got anything else? I know I had some core level ideas back on page one. Anyone want to go back to those? Not trying to push my own ideas, though, so new ideas are welcome.

[Thor]

I like the Host /Archivist being played by different people, but what mechanisms does the archivist have to get the other player to do what they want. This would seem to fall into the whole loss of control issues that we have seen here befor.  An Archivist might be in a host that thinks going to get drunk is what they should be doing when the archivist thinks they need to stop the bad guys from blowing up the bridge.

This has played further into what I was looking for than I hoped but I would prefer the idea of one player playing both parts with the knowledge that certain rolls are for the Archivist and others are for the Host. Like a captain trying to lead his men in battle the archivist is helpless except for whaterver thoughts that he could push into the head of the host and powers that can be transfered to the host. If the Archivist is succesful the images can make the Host change his actions but nothing can be counted on.  In my minds eye it plays like Grand Theft Auto with a lag on the controls. for example, you, as the Archivist, want the Host to stop before going into a building and notice something. you push a thought of some person that might be in the building that he would not want to see, like his boss, into his head and if successful get him to hesitate. Maybe pushing emotions and memories is all they can do. Like making origami with oven mits on.

[LordSmerf]

I was just thinking, and i realized that a "modular" rule set is a good match for a multi-verse game setting (RIFTS, Multiverser).  Now, i am not sure if that integrates with Archivists or not, but it is food for thought.

Thomas

[Sydney Freedberg]

1) Roleplaying Host & Archivist -- two players or one?

I like the Host /Archivist being played by different people, but what mechanisms does the archivist have to get the other player to do what they want..... I would prefer the idea of one player playing both parts . ...helpless except for whaterver thoughts that he could push into the head of the host and powers that can be transfered to the host....Like making origami with oven mits on.

I love that last line.

Having Host & Archivist played by different people is a bit avante-garde, I agree (I think inspired by somebody's game called Shadows...); and it's much simpler to have one player playing both. I actually suspect the problem would be the opposite of the one Thor worries about, though: I'm less worried that the Host player would obstruct the Archivist than that the Host player would use Out-Of-Character knowledge to be implausibly helpful. E.g. the Host as a character doesn't know the mysterious Man in Black is actually a Rogue Archivist, but the Host's player can guess, so he's predisposed to hit him with a stout stick.

That said, I'd still like to try the Host and Archivist being played by different players (or at least created by different players). It is the only way to truly capture the fact that there are two different personalities involved. How to handle it in game?

Uh..... well.... hmmmm.....

My first thought is different incentive systems: The Archivist's player is rewarded for accomplishing Archivist missions, but the Host's player is rewarded for playing out the interests & idiosyncracies of the Host -- even when they're impediments to the Archivist's mission, or for that matter self-destructive. (Thor, you said you liked self-destructive, right?). E.g. the Host is defined as an alcoholic nationalist; the Archivist's mission requires collaborating with the enemy nation; the Host player gets some kind of reward points for getting drunk and punching out the foreign leader.

Since Hosts may change from session to session, presumably rewards for good Host play should take the form of some metagame currency that isn't tied to character advancement (or can be rolled over from one Host to another).

My second thought is that, admitting that the Host's player will have lots of Out-Of-Character knowledge the Host lacks, to keep the Host player in the dark as much as possible. So before an adventure in a given world with a given set of Hosts (and I agree with JediBlack that Archivists can't just hop Hosts at will, they need to pick one and stick with it for a while), each player would decide whether s/he wants to play an Archivist or a Host for that adventure. Then only the Archivist players get the "mission briefing" on what the objective is, while only the Host players get key details of the game-world (after all, they live there; the Archivists just read about it). Then, in game, communication between Hosts' and Archivists' players is limited to in-character communication between Host and Archivist characters, and further limited by what "level of intervention" each Archivist has chosen, from "still, small voice" to "thundering divine command."


2) Modularity

... a "modular" rule set is a good match for a multi-verse game setting (RIFTS, Multiverser). Now, i am not sure if that integrates with Archivists or not...

I think it integrates beautifully. One appeal of the Archivist setting is that it's an open framework into which we can plug a nearly unlimited variety of worlds and even genres, each with its own Kewl Powerz, each of which can be designed as a plug-and-play module for different game groups to choose among as they wish.


3) Alternative Ideas

As much as I like the Archivist concept, maybe we should spend some time thinking up other ideas, rather than just fleshing this one out more....

Oops. Err, we don't seem to be doing that, do we?

I know I had some core level ideas back on page one.

And I've been thinking about them for a while, actually. The "Lensmen" idea is clearly one of the direct antecedents of the "Archivist" concept that's started to take over the thread. But (I'm saying that a lot tonight, I know), I think all of Andrew's ideas actually fit within the Archivist framework. Let's review:

First is that the "characters" are personalities. So the characters all have multiple personality disorder. This could mean that players switch characters (personalities) within the same physical body, or players switch control of the physical bodies as the different personalities take control.

Archivists as defined (from the beginning, by JediBlack) are (1) essentially disembodied personalities, (2) cohabiting in a Host body with the Host's personality, and (3) capable of switching bodies as needed.

Second, the characters are some sort of alien/cyborg capable of switching bodies or altering their personalities for specific tasks. Or they could control multiple bodies at the same time with the same personality.

Archivists are pretty darn alien, too.

Third, the players each play a nation through the luminaries of that nation (ambassadors, military leaders, etc.) and are free to switch characters as needed.

This is a potential campaign, right there, with the difference being that presumably all the players have the same overriding goal ("guide the nations of Woomparia to peace and harmony"). Compared to a dimension-hopping Cosmic War, this variant of an Archivist campaign would have a less grand scale -- one nation or group of nations -- but the tighter focus would allow a lot more detail and investment in the setting.

Fourth, the players take the roles of nobles in a fantasy setting...and they also play the retainers of the other nobles.

Uh... umm..... okay, maybe this one doesn't fit. Although "today we go to a fantasy world and take nobles and their retainers as Hosts" is a perfectly plausible adventure for Archivists. Especially fun if (as Andrew's original idea implies) the nobles and retainers -- the Hosts -- all have their own contradictory political agendas, and the Hosts' players are incentivized to compete with each other.

Fifth, something along the lines of the Lensmen series: the player's characters are humans, with a sort of guardian angel in the form of a super-powerful non-corporeal alien entity that is capable of temporarily taking over ("energizing") the humans to combat another equally powerful alien race.

We've simply taken this idea and turned it around: The players are (primarily) the guardian angels, in the form of the Archivists, who may well be combatting anti-Archivists or rogues.

Sixth, you play a family, following it through the course of generations as it strives for some very long-term goal. Rather than playing multiple characters at the same time, you switch to the next of kin when your current character dies (from old age, or anything else). Obviously, in-game time would have to pass much faster than real time in this concept.

Again, a viable campaign concept, one trading dimension-hopping grandeur for intimate focus.

In short (what's short about this post, you ask?), what I really like about the Archivist-Host concept is that it's a strong concept but also an open framework, into which you can plug a wide variety of very different campaigns, adventures, and settings -- not unlike Sorcerer.

[Andrew Morris]

Okay, new idea. The characters are aliens attempting to take control of the earth in preparation for a full-scale invasion. The could be controling various synthetic bodies at the same time. There could be stats for using primative human technology and blending in, etc.

Now everyone else come up with another idea.

Some thoughts on the Archivist concept (geez, even I can't help adding more to it):

I like the idea of the player controlling both host and Archivist. I was thinking along the lines of different reward mechanics as well. However, I was thinking that XP for hosts would result in rapid gains, whereas XP for Archivists would result in slower gains. The player could choose where the XP goes -- host XP get high short-term gain, but it will eventually be lost when the Archivist takes a new host. Of course, the improved host will still be there for the Archivist to control another time.

Random idea 1: once a host has been energized, no other entity can energize that particular host.

Random idea 2: The knowledge base of the Archivists is a universe/realm/reality/whatever that takes the form of a library larger than several worlds put together. It's a sort of surreal place, and finding anything is more instinct than anything else. Maybe the anti-Archivists also frequent the Library, and for some reason confilct between them doesn't occur. Maybe another race of beings (Librarians?) patrols the Library, helping researchers, and refusing entry to those who violate their rules of decorum?

[xenopulse]

Since Hosts may change from session to session, presumably rewards for good Host play should take the form of some metagame currency that isn't tied to character advancement (or can be rolled over from one Host to another).

How about this (and coincidentally, I've been thinking about this for a story before seeing this thread):

The Archivist has to give the Host some room for his/her own personality, in order to keep control. Especially when trying to be subtle. If the Archivist takes over and does not pay attention to the needs and wants of the Host, he/she will run into problems controlling or preserving the Host... there could be a scale, and when the Archivist was too dominant, he/she has to do things the Host's way for a while to achieve balance and avoid bad consequences.

[Jediblack]

Okay, new idea. The characters are aliens attempting to take control of the earth in preparation for a full-scale invasion. The could be controling various synthetic bodies at the same time. There could be stats for using primative human technology and blending in, etc.

What about aliens take control of the vital ganglia of the Earth with a silent invasion? I mean by a secret operation commandos like a group of 5 or 6 alien take control of a very little country such Luxemburg, Andorra...

They obviously kill president, king and so on, then, one of the alien become the president. Do you know Face Dancers of Dune by Frank Herbert? Later in the books Face Dancers can take also the victim thoughts so here is multiple peronalities.

This is too close to Frank Herbert... ok... aliens (PCs) control a small group of insect shape drones. By night these little friends take place inside president and so on. For insects are mentally tied to alien, he takes multiple personalities from president, premier, secretary and give a little of his personality to the victims.

[Tobias]

First up, a new idea:

Players play a complex, self-aware meme. (This would be something like a mind-virus AI).

Second: running with Morris' idea: The aliens would represent some new type of evil. Not the one we're all used to (demon, psychopaths, warmongering presidents, kpfs) but something fresh we have to come up with.

Third: I'll remember all posters that there's a parallel brain-warming question about 'best' possible RPG. See the initial post.

Fourth on the Archivist thing: I'll note that this idea is going towards details very rapidly. Nothing wrong with that, if you're exited about it, but try to keep creative and storming at all levels of that idea, and not just fleshing out powers. In upcoming parts of the brainstorm session, we'll take about 5 ideas and try to flesh them out a bit more - like's being done with the Archivists now. For now, try to add ideas so we have at least those 5... trying to solve the problem 'what's the coolest thing we can make right here'?

[Thor]

Another take on the Archivist idea. The archivists are there to witness only, like the Watchers in the Marvel Universe, and are forbiden to interact or change the outcome. Catch 22 like, however, the host is likely to take sides in the situation when they see what is happening and try to be involved. This would be a better layout for two players rather than one, having completely different objectives and capacities. If the host get's too involved the Archivist must jump to a new host or risk being involved in the changing of the situation, something which could drain a lot of the Archivists power, and find a new host. The host meanwhile would loose the powers that they have had and might suffer some other trauma. the biggest problem with this is that you might find yourself needing a new bunch of hosts on short notice. But there could be some fun trying to stop your Host from being involved when there is a chance to do good or make lots of money based on the knowledge.

[LordSmerf]

Go Brainstorm!

How about PCs with Multiple Personality Disorder.  Not in the actual psychological sense, but in the popularized fictional sense...?

Thomas

[Andrew Morris]

Heh...yeah. What if there was only one character, but each player was a separate personality?