Angels and Their Dominion

[TickTock Man]

From a long-time lurker and first-time poster to the forums, greetings from Chicago!

I just got the supplement the Sorcerer's Soul, and i find the treatment of angels to be really interesting.  I am a fan of literary and cinematic depictions of angels, from Milton to The Prophecy.  I find much of the good work on angels to be really inspiring in both a gaming and personal sense.

My questions are a bit tricky, and I will try to keep it from being too longwinded.  In the Sorcerer's Soul's treatment of angels, it recognizes that for angels to exist in the classic sense, they must serve a Higher Good, (or at least a Higher Authority).  Arguments about whether or not the what the Authority says is "good" is actually "good" are very old and still very interesting in my opinion.  For the sake of argument though, I will assume that the Authority has decreed what is "good" and what is "evil", and that it falls in line with the Ten Commandments.

My question then is this; why are angels limited in ther dominion over the the world?  Their inherent powers are mighty, true, stopping time and bestowing Grace qualify as a Big Deal.  But why is it do you think, that angels can be opposed by demons and even humans, but angels have no such ability?  After all, angels have been God's sheriff, his messenger, his comfort and his hitman!

Is it because the world is the domain of the fallen, and demons truly reign supreme in this world because they are cast down in the next?  Is it because God will not interfere with another's free will, even if it is a demon?  Is it something else?

Any thoughts on this are welcome, and I am interested to hear them all.  Thanks in advance!

-Angelo

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

It's well to remember that Sorcerer does not present a cosmology. It's a set of tools for making stories, and if the stories need a cosmology, then the group must provide one.

The specific metaphysical answers to your questions, therefore, would be answered through prep and play via your particular group. The angel rules themselves can do nothing except empower you to produce those answers.

why are angels limited in ther dominion over the the world? Their inherent powers are mighty, true, stopping time and bestowing Grace qualify as a Big Deal. But why is it do you think, that angels can be opposed by demons and even humans, but angels have no such ability? After all, angels have been God's sheriff, his messenger, his comfort and his hitman!

I can answer this in terms of what the rules provide. Before that, though, I must point out that in the above quote, "one of these sentences is not like the others," specifically the final one. When you say "angels have been" this or that, you are referencing something (specific pieces of the Old Testament, related literary sources, modern pop culture, whatever) which a given group may or may not be interested in including in its local cosmology for its story at all.

A given group might, for instance, just chuck the entire textual contribution of Judeo-Christian-Islamic history right out the window. "That? Good and important books. Nothing to do with angels in our game's cosmology. Moving on ..."

To another group, that might shock'em; only their interest in that specific material led them to consider "angels" in the first place. For this second group, your final sentence would be relevant, but for the first, it's just a weird tangent.

Your phrasing of your questions needs a little revision before I can answer it. For instance, you ask why I "think" angels are limited in the fashion described in the rules. I have to revise this because I don't think angels "are" anything at all. The rules in Sorcerer are not describing angels as some sort of thing out there with characteristics, but rather the literary and mythic entities in stories that include the role of angels. "Literary and mythic" are polite ways of saying "fictional."

Hence the Sorcerer rules are referencing fictional roles/entities in order to incorporate those particular symbols or theme-meat packages into play, or more accurately, into our group endeavor to create fiction of our own.

One of the essential features of angel characters in the materials I've read and studies is that they are not superheroes. They do not have "powers" which they wield in a context of personal choice and ethics. Instead, they imbue some aspect of the material world with qualities that help it do something which it wants to do anyway, and protect it to some extent from some of the fallout of past or present actions.

Angels are, if you will, a bit of Reality being "on your side." In It's a Wonderful Life, Clarence Oddbody doesn't change anything. It only shows George something he couldn't see himself, by expanding his perceptions of time and possibilties. He's a bit more in touch with Reality through the angel.

I am not at all interested in the clashings and thrashings of winged entities in variously-interpreted apocalyptic ravings. Those are not angels; they are clearly demigods and minor gods of a once-elaborate pantheon, more at home with their cousins in Norse and Vedic mythology than with the Judeo-Christian God.

Based on the sources that interest me (i.e. which I chose for my database to write chapter 3 in The Sorcerer's Soul), the angels are utterly helpless in the face of one thing: a person's willingness to do wrong, to whatever extent. "Wrong" here can include ethics, but it also includes submission to the nuts and bolts of reality - being Here in the world, Now, with whatever Role one is supposed to have.

Hence sorcery instantly puts a person in the position to reject the Grace of the angel. That doesn't mean the Grace isn't there, but the person can reject what it's for and not make any effort to garner Humanity gain rolls. Demons as fundamental violators of the Real (another reason why the currently-popular "fallen angels" could not be very interesting demons; they are part of the Real!) literally stop an angel in its tracks - not because demons are "more powerful," but because the angel's whole role is to connect a person to the Real, and the demon has essentially destroyed the Real simply by ... well, by being in it.

Power and Grace as game mechanics exist in specific reference and relevance to the mechanic of Humanity. Only a person can stop an angel. Only a person can empower a demon. These are the only reasons why a demon can stop an angel.

Best,
Ron

[TickTock Man]

Thank you for the reply!  that is exactly what I was looking for.

I can understand why my questions seemed limiting in the way they were posed.  I try to extricate myself from my own upbringing and preconceptions, but sometimes that is deceptively difficult to do.

I think the framework of the Real as you describe it, Ron, answers what it is I was looking for.  My goal is not to nail angels to some cosmology or other in particular, but to see why they might be restricted across the board from contravening the Power of a demon or a human being.  The play between free will and Grace will be central in my stories, and I look forward to tackling them, and I believe the mechanics provided in the Sorcerer's Soul will equip me to do that.

Since you mentioned it, what were some of the sources you used as a basis for writing chapter 3?

Thanks!

Angelo

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Angelo,

Excellent - glad to see that we're on the same page. I dreaded dealing with some wild-eyed Apocrypha fanatic ... ("No, man! It says right here in my occult book that in this lost chapter of the Bible, which the Templars suppressed, Jephramayanazaphram is the angel of fire! So, like, that would mean he could throw fireballs!")

As for my sources, it's been a while, so I'll do some brainstorming and get back to this thread with a list.

Best,
Ron

[TickTock Man]

I think I should a little more about the way in which I view angels, especially in light of your comments, Ron.

Climbing soapbox...

For me, angelhood, no matter what form it takes, is all about agency.  When I say that, I mean that an angel is by definition an agent of the Will of the Authority, whomever or whatever it may be.  If the Authority Wills that event X happens, then an angel is that through which the Will is made manifest.  When an angel ceases ot manifest the Will of the Authority, the angel becomes something other.

As I see it, the trick is that angels still retain personhood.  Much as demons have an independent will, agenda and a free will, I believe the same principles apply to angels.  The difference that an angel wills or allows its personhood to be fully aligned with the Will of the Authority.  It makes sense then that an angel will likewise never force a person to conform to the angel's desire, but will definitely encourage the person to fall in line with the principles that the angel embodies.  As above, so below, and all that good stuff.

A metaphor might be that the angel is the lense through which the light of the Authority is filtered.  Without that lense, the Will and experience of the Authority would sear Reality or Creation itself.  If that Will is manifest through an angel, however, the angel enables that Will to be expressed through an intermediary filter and no damage to Reality occurs.  Staring directly at the intense light of the sun will blind you, but staring at it through a stained-glass window will still give you many of the properties of of the sunlight (its illuminates, it enables you to see, it gives off heat, etc.) but without experiencing the damaging effects of direct exposure.

Assuming this is true, many questions remain.  While the filtered light is similar to the sunlight, it is NOT the sunlight itself but rather a somewhat altered version.  What the, can we determine about the Authority itself by the way its Will is made manifest through angels?  How much of what deduce is accurate?  And how do we feel about the conclusions we have reached?  In the classic Christian stories of Sodom and Gemorrah and Plagues of Pharoah, imagine how you would feel if you had family in the cities and the Authority (God, in this case) decided to smite almost the entire population, or kill the first-born of every family in a pagan city?  I am not sure how well I would take that, and if I would be so sure it was a noble Authority at all.  On the other hand, as a believer, could you have better assurance that you were on the side of the Good, and what your Authority says is what goes?  Would that inspire greater faith in you, or would you be scared into quiet and awed submission?  Does the Authority really care what you think anyway?

Climbing down from soapbox....

Thanks for your time.

-Angelo

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I buy all that as an excellent local customization, for which the Angel rules will serve admirably. I think your game might eventually find itself generating some Angel-to-Person transformation rules, as this process certainly seems to play a role in many stories in which your ideas are central.

It's interesting, isn't it, that the main angel character in Wings of Desire does not become human as a rebellion, but rather because he values humanity, and hence is celebrating the Authority's creation by giving up his angelness?

Also, if you haven't already, check out the Angels and Angels 2 discussions from the original Sorcerer mailing list, back from 1999 or so.

Best,
Ron

[TickTock Man]

Yeah, that is the way I will likely incorporate angels into our games.  I think that angles allow me to approach not only new themes and issues in Sorcerer, but also to approach similar themes as demons do but from a new angle.

It is odd, too, because my demons have a distinctly Lovecraftian feel.  Given that Lovecraft and the Mythos is right about everything, I wonder what an angel would be?  I don't know if there is even a place for them in such a desolate and sinister universe.  I will have to think about it.  Two different types of alien intelligences, two different agendas, it may just require a totally new framework.

God, this game never runs out of possibiltiy.

-Angelo