Game in Search of Dice Mechanic, Likes Pina Coladas

[Shreyas Sampat]

So, all the buzz about Dogs in the Vineyard, and seeing Hero in theatre, has inspired me to write again. I was particularly enamoured of the way that DitV conflicts can, mechanically, escalate from the social sphere to the violent physical sphere—could I devise a game that depends on this shifting of conflicts?

I have an idea for a game in a sort of space-fantasy vein, a Dune in a world more amenable to being explored, rife with super-narcotics and mind-body development schools that imbue their students with bizarre powers. So what is most striking about these abilities, and those in wuxia movies like Hero, is that they often take one character's abilities in a particular sphere, and simply thrust them into another sphere. Flying Snow, for instance, seems to deal with all her problems by jumping and spinning around, and Broken Sword can use his calligraphy to extinguish vengeful intentions and outfight the King of Qin! The Bene Gesserit have somehow made their own body manipulations into a frightening political tool, and so forth. I want to capture this metaphoric use of skill.

So...what's going to be significant about this (as yet nameless) game are the characters. We'll focus on those. Each character has a Trait rating in the five primary conflict types (Battle, Influence, Intrigue, Lore, and Romance, I think; terms to be polished later), and a rating in Harmony, which should be lower than most of the conflict ratings. The conflict type ratings are a maximum on the number of dice that can be stored in that conflict's pool. (I'd like 5 to be a fairly high rating here, but not one unattainable by characters.)

How the Dice System Should Work
Any conflict is done in a sequence of exchanges. In an exchange, first each character recieves as many dice as his Harmony rating; he may distribute these dice into his conflict pools, never having more dice than his conflict rating in a particular pool. Then, each character may spend dice from the relevant conflict pool, apportioning these dice to various actions. The most important actions (and the only ones I've devised) are Accomplish and Prevent. The players roll these dice, and accumulate "victories" in some manner, where Prevent prevents Accomplish from accumulating victories. At the start of a conflict, the relevant conflict pool is full and the other conflict pools are empty.

So, I'd like this to be a rapid process, with low handling time. Examining the Sorcerer dice mechanic, I like how fast it looks, but its odds are somewhat friendlier to the underdog than I'd prefer. Help, please?

Accumulated victories may be spent at any moment to impose various Consequences. Generally, the GM will set the amount of victories needed to accomplish something specific, but some guidelines for mechanically effective goals exist. The goal of this is for a conflict to go on a little while before anything important happens, either because the characters are gathering up dice to do some huge action, or because they are accumulating victories by doing small actions. Some examples of Consequences:

Unearthed Wisdom:
You increase the rating of your Trait. (The one that is active in this conflict.) This is permanent. Unearthed Wisdom cannot be affected by modifiers unless they explicitly state it.
Cost:
Rating * 5 victories.

Inflicting Corruption:
The target gains a new Trait rating. It automatically refreshes at a rate of 1 die per exchange. Other characters may draw dice from this pool when they are attempting to Accomplish something against him. Examples: Wounded Arm, Mystified by Logic, Severed Nose, etc.
Cost:
Rating in victories for a Trait that lasts the duration of the conflict. Rating * 5 victories for a Trait that is permanent.

Harvest of 10,000 Stars (modifier):
You increase the number of targets affected by your action.
Cost:
+5 victories: Five targets.
+10 victories: Ten targets.
+15 victories: One hundred targets.
+20 victories: Name a condition that can be discerned through common observation. All those that meet the condition are affected. To discern concealed information about the targets, combine this with Happenstance of Heavenly Conjunction.

Happenstance of Heavenly Conjunction (modifier):
You set forces into motion, which will culminate in the chosen effect once certain conditions are met.
Cost:
+5 victories: A simple condition, operating on common knowledge. Examples: night falls, an hour has passed, etc.
+10 victories: A complex condition which can discern things about the target and has access to your knowledge. Examples: The target goes to sleep, you learn of your father's death.
+15 victories: A condition that can discern secrets, or an effect that can be activated at will.

Interesting Wrinkles
Special education allows characters to link conflict pools together. A link allows several things, depending on its nature:

[*]You may start a conflict with a full linked pool.
[*]You may draw dice through a link, allowing you to effectively add together your ratings for two kinds of conflicts.
[*]You may inflict the sort of Consequences associated with a linked Conflict, instead of those of the primary one. With this option, you can do things like cutting your enemy in a swordfight in such a way that he becomes pregnant with twins (that links Battle and Romance) or perhaps write a poem that will cause whoever reads it to be betrayed by their closest friend (linking Lore and Intrigue). This option is the engine powering the wuxia metaphor.[/list:u]

Characters may have their own, special conflict pools in fields of study they are particularly interested in. Furthermore, all characters have relationship ratings, which function like conflict pools except that a character can always draw dice from a relationship to augment an action. These ratings descibe the character's feelings toward another character.

I think that I will probably define the links between the five core conflicts in terms of several schools of superhuman education, each of which knows the techniques that unlock a few of these links. In addition, I can describe several links stemming from particular idiosyncratic Traits, and some templatic links as well.



So. I have this big idea for a game, and I'm wondering these things: Other than settling down on a dice mechanic, what do I need to do with this to capture the wuxia metaphor? Is this relationship mechanic strong enough? How am I going to accomplish the process by which a conflict naturally shifts from one type to another, without capitalizing on links?

[TonyLB]

I'm not sure I see why you're breaking things up into different conflict pools.

The downsides are this:  It radically increases your handling time, and it is the largest mechanical barrier against your notion of having any ability be applicable to any sort of conflict.

So what's the upside that makes it worthwhile?

[Shreyas Sampat]

I see I wasn't explicit about that.

I want this ability to misapply ability to be specific and unusual - it sets different characters apart. Maybe Flatline Asakusa can link her Music trait to Intrigue and Battle, but in matters of Influence, she is no match for Guitar Nebula Pang, who can sway crowds to his political views with his Rock 'n' Roll.

[Doug Ruff]

With this option, you can do things like cutting your enemy in a swordfight in such a way that he becomes pregnant with twins

That is a stroke of genius.

As far as mechanics go, I'd try turning this on it's head a bit. Keep the 5 primary pools fixed, and keep them full all the time, unless they are 'damaged'.

In a conflict, characters must use the relevant trait for that conflict (gaining full dice for that trait). They can also spend a point of Harmony to add another primary trait to the conflict (gaining full dice). However, this doubles the amount of any Victories the opponent achieves during the round (you've placed more of your being at risk.)

[Note: I think this is the same as a Link in your original write-up. If so, I'm suggesting that Harmony is spent to 'activate' a Link]

This may work if the 'underdog' still has a chance of winning against a superior dice pool. I'd let Harmony refresh partially at the end of a conflict (if you won) and fully at the end of a scene (or play session.)

One final thought: I think that Battle, Intrigue, Honour, Lore and Passion may be a closer fit with the wuxia premise - but this is a personal feeling only, and not a criticism of your own choices.

[Shreyas Sampat]

Thanks for the compliment, Doug. Mind explaining why you'd to things the way you suggest? Part of the reason that I have Traits set up as fluctuating dice pools is that taking an action at full force requires you to take some time preparing or recovering; your suggestion doesn't make this possible. It does have the benefit of drastically reducing handling time, but I think it may be at too much cost, unless there is some subtlety I'm missing.

I agree that your set of core conflicts is more wuxia-like; if I can figure a way to maintain the distinction between personal intrigue and large-scale social influence, something that I want for the purposes of the Dune source, I think I will adapt it. Thanks!

[Doug Ruff]

You're welcome, Shreyas.

As for why, handling time has a lot to do with it, yes. I also thought that if the pools had a maximum of 5, and this needed to be split between Accomplish and Prevent, then characters were going to run out of dice very quickly - although that may be your intent! I'd also note that a 'full force' action isn't the use of a single pool, it's using more than one pool, this costs Harmony.

For example, if I have a high score in Intrigue, but a poor score in Battle, I can use venomous words (Imperious Devastating Rebuke!) to fight an opponent, but it's going to cost me a point of Harmony each time. This is my full force action. Once I'm out of Harmony, I'm reduced to using my basic Battle pool.

[Hmm, I'd also forget what I said about Linking allowing your opponent to score double victories, Linking should be encouraged.]

So, requiring expenditure of Harmony delivers the recovery mechanic, but it doesn't deliver the need for preparation time, unless this is an explicit feature of the Link. Can you give an example of when you want preparation to be necessary?

[Shreyas Sampat]

It has to do with the nature of wuxia combat timing - the heroes, traditionally, are not wholly beyond humanity, and they often butt heads with their limitations. Allow me to illustrate with an example. I'll use the Sorcerer dice mechanic, as I understand it, here.

from The Spring and Autumn Annals
The two sworn enemies Autumn Column Tsang and Budding Orchid of Wu meet on a bridge, traveling in opposite directions. The bridge is quite broad, but the etiquette of their world requires one to stand aside as the other passes. Neither wants to do this. Instead, they engage in a duel.
Autumn Column Tsang has a Harmony of 4 and a Battle of 5. He is a student of the Xing Feng β school of kung fu, which links his Battle to his Lore of 3; it is a form of astrological combat.
Budding Orchid of Wu is a less tenacious combatant; her Harmony is only 2, but her Battle is 6. She has learned the Thousand Miles Away Mantra, which links her Battle to her idiosyncratic Space Travel trait, which is rated at 4.
They begin the fight with full Battle pools and no other dice. Autumn declares that he will attempt to "mark Wu so everyone knows her kung fu is no good", giving her a permanent level-2 negative Trait. He will need 10 Victories to accomplish this. Orchid says that she wants to "make Tsang unable to impede her", giving him a temporary level-10 negative Trait, at a cost of 10 Victories. She decides that she needs this obstacle to be much larger than Wu's Battle rating, so that she can draw from it freely.

Orchid does not even wait for Autumn to draw his sword before vaulting into the air on her spear, howling a battle cry! Autumn, expecting this, takes a step to the side while readying his jian, moving through the first of seven Pleiades Forms, which attack and defend at once.
First, they recieve their Harmony in dice, which they distribute to their linked Traits. Autumn devotes 1 die to Accomplish his goal and 2 to Prevent Orchid's onslaught, while Orchid goes on the offensive, devoting 3 dice to Accomplishments. Autumn need not roll his Accomplish, since it is unresisted; he racks up a Victory. He Prevents with 8,7 against 9,4, so Orchid recieves 1 Victory as well.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 2, Lore 3, Rival of Orchid 1, Victories 1
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 3, Space Travel 2, Victories 1

The second Pleiades Form is an elegant sequence of strikes, which Orchid is forced to resist with the Weightless Traveler Stance, by which she is pushed by the attack instead of being cut.
Refreshing their pools, both combatants refill their Battle. Autumn has accumulated some spare dice in his Rival of Orchid pool, which he now spends to Accomplish a 2-dice action. Orchid spends a die of Space Travel to Prevent. Autumn rolls 9,4 against Orchid's 2, gaining 2 Victories.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 5, Lore 3, Rival of Orchid 0, Victories 3
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 4, Space Travel 2, Victories 1

The boards of the bridge creak as Autumn lunges forward, committing most of his energy for an attack. He is overextended, though, and Orchid effortlessly places a hand on his blade, doing a flipping vault over it to land behind him.
Orchid puts her refresh into Space Travel, and Autumn, whose pools are full, drops all of his into Rival of Orchid. Now they both know that the battle is joined in earnest! Tsang spends 8 dice, emptying his Battle and Lore pools, to perform a 5-die Accomplishment and a 3-dice Prevent. Wu Prevents with 4 Space Travel dice. The rolls are 9,8,7,4,2 for Autumn's attack, 10, 5, 2 for his Prevent, and 10, 9, 1, 1 for Wu's action. No one accumulates any Victories this turn.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 0, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 4, Victories 3
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 4, Space Travel 0, Victories 1

Autumn Column barely has time to enact the Spiral Arm Maneuver to defend against the attack he knows is coming, but he executes it well.
Tsang refreshes his Battle this turn, and decides to defend with 2 dice. Wu also refills Battle, and attacks with the same. Autumn rolls 10,8, which easily fends off Wu's 7,6.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 2, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 4, Victories 3
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 4, Space Travel 0, Victories 1

The sharpened tips of two meteoric weapons slip by one another, as Autumn and Orchid move in simultaneously for attacks. There is no sound but the whispering of the river below and the swish of silk against steel.
This time, both attack for the same number of dice as their pools refresh by. In the absence of defence, these are completely Victorious.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 2, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 4, Victories 7
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 4, Space Travel 0, Victories 3

Steel clashes on steel as the fighters soar into the air; the Mars Ascendant Fist is defeated by the Absence of Anything Defence, while Orchid's formless attack meets a quietly elegant parry. Orchid lands first, her chest heaving, and Tsang drops to the ground beside her. "I told you once before that the Wu style of combat has nothing to redeem it from the depth of mediocrity."
Autumn, who is at a huge advantage at this point, decides to devote not only his refresh but also all the dice he has stored up to his next action. This adds up to 10 dice, but he only attacks for 7. With the other 3, he Prevents. Wu splits her 6 dice evenly between attack and defence, hoping that some trick of change will save her. The rolls are 9,8,6,4,4,4,3 and 7,3,1 for Autumn, and 5,1,1 and 9,7,5 for Orchid. Autumn gets 1 Victory, and Orchid has none.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 0, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 0, Victories 8
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 0, Space Travel 0, Victories 3

"Your kung fu is strong, Tsang, but your family is unrighteous and they are known to a thousand words as barbaric and dishonourable fighters. Though you may defeat me, I am unashamed."
This turn, neither warrior acts, instead refreshing their pools.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 4, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 0, Victories 8
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 2, Space Travel 0, Victories 3

A dark metal sword cuts through the patterns of destiny, gently prodding at the geometry of Orchid's fate, but it encounters only an unfathomable emptiness.
Tsang drops four dice into his Lore and spends them. He lunges again, with Orchid Preventing halfheartedly with 2 dice. The rolls are 9,7,5,3 for him and for Wu, 9,8, so nothing eventful has happened.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 4, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 0, Victories 8
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 2, Space Travel 0, Victories 3

Realizing that emptiness is a place where anything can be kept, Autumn Column Tsang writes a horoscope into Blossming Orchid of Wu's soul. Using his astrological fu, he ensures that Wu will forever be shamed by some trick of the light that writes "foolish sword" onto her in a pattern of shadows. Orchid, seeing that she has met her match, steps aside and begins thinking of whom she can train with before she faces Tsang again.
This turn, Tsang Accomplishes with 6 dice, and Orchid splits 4 between attack and defence. Their rolls are 10,10,9,4,3,2,1 for Tsang and 9,4 and 8,7 for Wu. Tsang accumulates 3 more victories, allowing him to accomplish his goal. He stores the residual Victory away as learning; someday he may be able to improve his Lore through constant exercise.
Autumn Column Tsang:
Battle 2, Lore 0, Rival of Orchid 0, Victories 1
Budding Orchid of Wu:
Battle 0, Space Travel 0, Kung Fu No Good (negative) 2, Victories 3

If these characters had, as you suggest, constant pools and a limited number of chances to link them together, then it'd be much harder to see the way in which one's pacing choices interact with their abilities; Tsang, with his smaller pools, won out so handily here because he has a much superior ability to recover from large actions.

[inky]

If these characters had, as you suggest, constant pools and a limited number of chances to link them together, then it'd be much harder to see the way in which one's pacing choices interact with their abilities; Tsang, with his smaller pools, won out so handily here because he has a much superior ability to recover from large actions.

Was there any way, barring exceptional die rolls, that Orchid could have won? With such a (relatively) high number of victories required, I don't think she could have pulled off the victory in the first round or two, and after that a smaller refresh seems like a major disadvantage.

I don't have a lot of familiarity with the source material, but I'm not convinced varying refresh rates is really true to type -- there are sometimes people with a special move who are much less effective once that's failed, but in general it seems to me that staying power and skill are pretty strongly correlated.

[Doug Ruff]

Before I get into mechanics, just want to say that that's a great example. It tells me a lot about what you're thinking, and the descriptions rock.

Inky's got a good point, if I were Orchid I'd be looking to looking to inflict a small temporary consequence because I need the effects straight away. Remember that, according to your original writeup, temporary Corruption Traits only last for the duration of the conflict anyway.

Also, Harmony is far more powerful than the other traits when played this way. For example, if Tsang has a Battle 3 and Lore 1, he is still far more likely to win through attrition.

Finally, I like the idea of the Rival of Orchid Trait, but this is actually a third Linked Trait as it is used in the example.

So some questions:

1) Can characters spend Victories at will during conflict, or must they declare an outcome at the beginning and earn the required victories afterwards?

2) If they must declare before, can characters declare much smaller temporary Consequences, achieve these and keep on fighting?

3) Do you really want Harmony to be this powerful?

4) How does one learn to link a 'personal' Trait such as 'Rival of Orchid', and how are these traits gained?

5) Would you like me to post an alternative example, using the mechanics I suggested earlier?

[Shreyas Sampat]

Was there any way, barring exceptional die rolls, that Orchid could have won? With such a (relatively) high number of victories required, I don't think she could have pulled off the victory in the first round or two, and after that a smaller refresh seems like a major disadvantage.

I don't honestly know. I think it would have been possible, had she a larger initial pool, or if there were some way beyone refreshing to refill one's dice pools. As it stands, I think she was probably outmatched, but I'm not sure how much.

I don't have a lot of familiarity with the source material, but I'm not convinced varying refresh rates is really true to type -- there are sometimes people with a special move who are much less effective once that's failed, but in general it seems to me that staying power and skill are pretty strongly correlated.

You're probably right about this, and having one stat that does something completely different than all the others is sort of weirding me out. I'll think on it, but I think this is a point where, if the refresh rate variation works in gameplay, I'm not concerned if it appears in the source. Gameplay is a bigger concern.


Unrelated to this issue, I'm thinking about the way I set this up—with each character's ultimate goal set out from the beginning, and fixed—with concern toward how I can manipulate this setup to make it more interesting. I'm imagining some actions which let you manipulate your goal or that of your opponent.

[DevP]

Looking over the feel of what you have, here is the essence that I got.
(1) There are traits, relating to the kind of conflict. One of the traits will be involved on the conflict primarily.
(2) You get pools of this trait, and any other traits its linked to via Educations or whatnot.
(3) Relationships are like traits that are autolinked to everything.
(4) If a trait is linked-up on your side (i.e. it's in play), it can affect consequences, as in the Lore/Romance combinations.
(5) You imagine gameplay based on indeterminate resource management.

Gamewise, the refresh rate is a big deal (the Colonel was in effect getting two extra dice per turn, and improper play seems the main way he's lose), and ALSO a big deal is your links - you want to bring in as many traits as possible on your side, as they can only help. Meanwhile, the links between things don't matter as much - the fact that Alpha links Battle and Lore and Beta links Battle and Influence is secondary to the fact that you can bring in all three into a Battle-oriented conflict.

Funny Mechanical ideas, dice and otherwise

- What if Harmony was a Trait? A "refresh" is pushing dice to Harmony, and when you've spent dice, you're just pushing dice back onto Harmony, of course discarding those that don't fit. Same effect, but now we're talking about the flows (links?) between different attributes rather than spending as such. The analogy isn't perfect, but consider.

- What if we define traits as: just some detail that's probably derived from the basic 5 conflict types, but may also be unrelated, or a relationship? Then, a conflict unfolds as: (1) lay down all traits that are necessarily involved, i.e. conflict type + relationships (2) both players use links to add extra linked pools into this fray (3) each player defines their desired means by their own linked pools in play, and the scope of a possible end by the rival's linked pools, i.e. the stake (4) battle & resolve.

- If you're looking for the Really Low Handling Time, perhaps reconsider using those stakes (dice, victories, whatnot) to modify a single die roll at some point or another, rather than a dice pool.

- How about a dice pool where you just look for a single number for successes? Also fast.

[Jonathan Walton]

Hmm.  Not to be the wet blanket here, but the system just doesn't click with me and I'm going to do my best to explain why, since Shreyas' designs usually push all of my buttons.

My thoughts on wuxia are HERE, and actually based heavily on some stuff that Shreyas articulated at some point (I don't remember where), about the importance of emotional trainwrecks.  Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the wuxia elements that you're trying to use and not getting a real feel for the genre-fusion you're trying to create, but here's what my mind's saying now:

Right now, your system seems to still be focused on physical accomplishment and success, which seems backwards to me for the genre you're trying to create.  I don't know if this is your Exalted background coming through or what, but we're talking about tragedy here, on an epic scale.  Players are going to go in wanting their characters to be hurt deeply.  What do you want to get out of the conflict?  You want rich, bloody story meat.  You want to have your love ones killed or your family dishonored or to be sold to space pirates or something that will force you to change as a character.  You go into conflict wanting to come out of it a different person.  Why else are you fighting?  Every conflict is the seed of a transformation.  

The reason that Tsang and Wu are fighting is NOT about who gets to cross the bridge with their honor intact.  Once the fight begins, you know that's not an option anymore.  No one is going to make it through without changing in some way.  The question is WHO changes and HOW that change manifests.  Wuxia is a genre that bleeds Drama.  Why do things happen?  Because they make for better story.  I mean, this is, in many ways, the reasoning behind the crazy kung fu powers in the first place.  Why should people be able to leap around the three tops and cut petals in half?  Because it makes for better story.  This isn't grounded in reality or any sense of fairness or balance.

And that's what I'm not getting from the design.  This is what Fallout does in Dogs.  Every fight is a transformation.  Nobody comes out unscathed.  Dogs works backwards, though.  It says that every fight you pick will lead to transformation, not that the things you fight about are, in themselves, transformative.  You could take either approach, I think, but you need some sort of grounding in the emotionally harrowing and transformative to give this system some kind of life.  Right now, with the steady accumulation of successes, it just doesn't have any "umph."

By the way, for a title, what you need is a Chinese idiom that you translate into English.  "House of Flying Daggers" real name is "Shi Mian Mai Fu" which is, literally, "Ambushes in Ten Directions," or "surrounded by danger."  Find an idiom that fits your scifi Dune fantasy and you've got it made.

[Ben Lehman]

This is me agreeing with Jonathan.  I also think that you are making this system needlessly complicated.  More thoughts this afternoon, or tomorrow.

yrs--
--Ben

[Shreyas Sampat]

Woot. Lots of things to talk about here.

First things first - this isn't exactly intended to be a wuxia game; it's intended to draw upon the things that make wuxia strong. Characters with grand artistic visions of destiny, all running headlong at each other because their passion does not permit otherwise, having no choice but to act in painful, destructive ways. Unfortunately, it's not there yet.

Doug:
Looks like we crossposted. Some thoughts for you:
[list=1][*]The way I wrote the example, it looks like one has to define a goal for the confrontation beforehand, and then earn victories towards that specific goal. Once you've achieved that goal, the confrontation automatically ends.
[*]I've been thinking about this; I'd rather do it the opposite way, in which you define an overarching goal which will end the confrontation, and then you may funnel off excess victories (at a surcharge) into ancillary effects.
[*]Way lots more on this below in my response to Jonathan.
[*]I'm not sure how explicit this is in my initial post. You automatically have pools for anyone you have strong feelings towards, and can always use these as though they were linked. (I think that this may change soon.)
[*]If you'd like to, please feel free; it's quite germane to the thread. But I'd like to concentrate on the problem of thematics, as you will soon see.[/list:o]Dev:
Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to get across; thanks for summarizing so tidily. I think you'll see where your mechanical ideas inspired my thoughts about Passions in just a moment.

Jonathan:
Jonathan, you pinned down what's been bugging me about this game; I like the way that the mechanics work, but the outputs they produce are not the outputs I want; they aren't consequential enough. What do I do about this? Why aren't the characters running headlong at one another? What is the cost of fu?

And, yes! This is crunchy! It's full of nooks and crannies where things can be manipulated and strategies may be formed. Maybe it's my M:tG heritage; I love these things. I love designing them and playing around with them. They fascinate me.

Chris Edwards mentioned something to me that reminded me...I have this idea that all these supernatural abilities are corrupting, inhumane in a way. They consume you. Now, meanwhile, we want to have characters barrelling towards each other in these profoundly dangerous conflicts. Look back at Refreshing Rain, even that game has a function where characters flip out because they just can't handle it anymore because life is so full of conflicts.

Now, how does this joint in with everything else? Throw out the idea of Harmony. This is all about to be about disharmony. (It is also about to get really mechanically widgety.)

Suppose each character has a few things that he is truly passionate about - events that he wants to happen deep in his heart. In service of these things, he trains himself in the secret arts. Most importantly, not all of these things can happen. When creating characters, you must be sure that each character that has some goal that is impossible if some other character's goal comes to pass.

So this is the form of a Passion:
Event Rating
Secret Art Linking Property

For an example,
The King of Qin's Death: 4
How Swift Thy Sword Must Be: Battle - Lore

In any confrontation, two Passions will be butting heads. Your rating in the Passion determines your refresh rate for that confrontation. This covers the "characters running headlong at one another" bit.

Every character has some finite amount of Passion to parcel out between these various goals and secret arts, so that builds in another limiting mechanic - as you gain more passions and more supernatural ability, you become increasingly dispassionate in each, unless you are a particularly intense PC with a lot of points to distribute. Presumably, this is where I would insert a discussion on how one redistributes one's passions and acquires new ones and all that. In time! (Dang, this textbox feels tiny.)

One pattern of distribution that I'm sure I want to include is a shift of focus, where you transfer one point from every other Passion onto a target Passion. This has the automatic result (or motivation) that it's somehow become more difficult to accomplish that goal; either conditions have shifted, or someone else's focus has shifted toward a Passion that opposes your own.

Now, on to painful and destructive conflicts!

The most obvious way to handle this is to use Consequences, which are already built into the system to a certain extent. I can easily imagine a system where, every time you accomplish some confrontational goal, life somehow gets worse for you, in the form of a Consequence of a magnitude related to what you just accomplished. I'm thinking that, as a standard, you will cause karmic Consequences of half the magnitude of your own achievements; this is enough to hammer the point in while leaving the PCs some room to choose their own downfalls. Whenever you draw on a relationship, you guarantee that the karmic Consequence of a conflict will make the situation surrounding the relationship worse. These karma backlashes would probably be devised by the other players, informed by the nature of the confrontation that caused them.

[Ben Lehman]

Okay, so here's my reply.

I think that you are getting muddled here, because you are trying to take standard RPG resolution and make it into something that it is fundamentally opposed to.  I'll get into the details of that in a moment.

First of all, this seems very much like a system where a single contest is going to cover a significant amount of territory, narrative-wise (I'm not going to get into task resolution versus conflict resolution here.)  So I'm going to call the unit of action a "deed," meaning that it is a thing that a person does as a whole, rather than chopped up arbitrary bits.

If you will allow to discurse on the structure of deeds for a moment, I'd be much obliged.  Thanks.

When looking at really any human endeavor, but especially in the context of the RPG, we can divide a deed into four parts -- motive, method, goal, and side-effects.  I think that motive and side-effects are important, but I'm going to discard them for a second to focus on methods and goals, because they're really at the core of the problem here.

What you seem to be going for, in a system mechanic, is not Dune or Wuxia per se, but rather a particular aspect of their color that you find appealing.  As far as I can tell, this is a strong decoupling of the results of an action and the nature of the action itself.  In the terms above, the methods and goals are strongly disjunct, which gives a feeling of wonderment and mastery.  Am I correct in this?

Your problem is that you are using some traditional RPG assumptions for this and that, in traditional RPGs, method and goal are strongly linked -- at least in the context of skill-rating systems, there is a strong desire to keep everything in its particular box.  And, of course, the likely success of certain goals over others shapes character actions and is at the root of a lot of why system matters.

 There is, I think, really not a good way of decoupling method and goal without really starting from scratch.  So let's do that.  Drop the action pools and all that for right now, and think about how you want this to work.

Here's my take, very rough:

Every character has a certain number of methods.  These can be rated or not.

In challenges, a "level of victory" is established for both sides.

Both sides can use this to purchase certain wide-ranging effects, or extend the conflict in hope of building up yet more points.  If you want total decoupling, the effect costs have nothing at all to do with the methods.  If you want a slight coupling, have the method change the cost scaling of the effects, but nothing else.

Done.

yrs--
--Ben