Designing new Keywords

[Tom B]

This is my first post to the Forge, despite lurking for quite awhile.  Be gentle. :)

I am new to HeroQuest.  I've read the rules and I think I have a basic grasp of the mechanics and concepts.  (Magic is still tricksy, though.)

I hope to run HeroQuest in the near future, but it won't be in the Glorantha setting.  I have an ongoing campaign in another setting, and have grown dissatisfied with the mechanics we were using.

This does mean I have to set up a new set of Keywords for the characters that are being translated.  The Homeland Keywords seem fairly straightforward...it's the Occupation and Magic Keywords I'm unsure of.

Not everyone in the setting has magic, so I'm not sure a Magic Keyword would be appropriate.  However, two of the three characters do have magic...one of them has extensive magic.  Should I just include various spells in his Occupation Keyword?  Or just give the two magic using characters Magic Keywords, and provide a compensating Keyword of additional abilities for the non-magic using character?

Are there any guidelines on the web for designing new Keywords?

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

Tom B.

[lightcastle]

Mike has been making keywords for a non-Gloranthan campaign, so I'm sure he'll have suggestions. I would think that if not everyone has magic, then something else as a 3rd keyword would be appropriate. As for including magic in an occupation keyword, I think I'd avoid that unless the occupation and magic are inextricably intertwined.

For some other advice on how flexible the system is and ways to make different appropriate keywords, try Bruce Ferrie's page http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/bferrie/resources/index.htm">here.

[Tom B]

I would think that if not everyone has magic, then something else as a 3rd keyword would be appropriate. As for including magic in an occupation keyword, I think I'd avoid that unless the occupation and magic are inextricably intertwined.

What else might be appropriate for a 3rd keyword?

The occupations in question are 'magent', which is specifically a spy who uses magic as a part of his abilities, and 'priest' which is easy to handle using magical keywords, but becomes more problematic if you're not.

[Minx]

I think that depends heavily on the world your playing in and on your intention with this world. HQ really shines in bringing stuff like relationships, intentions etc. up to front. So you should ask yourself what conventions of the gameworld you want to simulate and, even more importantly, how do YOU as a GM/Player want the game to feel and behave.

(It also would help if you´d tell us something about the world... :)

As a good example of a HQ conversion of a "fairly normal" fantasy setting, I could send you Scriptys Midnight-Heroquest conversion. (Midnight is a Dark Fantasy setting for d20.) There you can get a nice feeling for the things that can be done with HQ, and how it may be done.

You can also look at my Shadowrun-conversion, or at least whats there to read about it. Mike Holmes, who probably will be here in a second to help you, has made some very good points. (I pretty much had the same questions.)

Generally, I thing a [Where you come from]/[What you do for a living]/[What makes you special]-spread works best for most settings.

M

[Tom B]

I think that depends heavily on the world your playing in and on your intention with this world. HQ really shines in bringing stuff like relationships, intentions etc. up to front. So you should ask yourself what conventions of the gameworld you want to simulate and, even more importantly, how do YOU as a GM/Player want the game to feel and behave.

(It also would help if you´d tell us something about the world... :)

One of the reasons I'm considering switching to HeroQuest is that I wish to place more emphasis on relationships, etc.

The world is 'Darkurthe' from the 'Darkurthe Legends' RPG from a few years ago.  It has a variety of cultures and peoples, and a wealth of relationships between the various cultures.  It's a land full of myths and legends, heroic deeds, powerful magic, active gods....powerful evil and powerful good.  HQ seems very fitting.

The world outside the continent is unreachable behind a magical barrier.  The land of Darkurthe itself is mostly wilderness, with most civilization clustered around a great bay and consisting of small citystates, with a few larger countries.  

Technologically quite a bit more advanced than Glorantha, with fairly advanced metalworking and other crafting skills.

As much as magic is everywhere and quite powerful, it still takes training to be able to use it.  Most common people never learn magic, and for those that do, it usually becomes their vocation.

As a good example of a HQ conversion of a "fairly normal" fantasy setting, I could send you Scriptys Midnight-Heroquest conversion. (Midnight is a Dark Fantasy setting for d20.)

That could be quite helpful, thanks.

Generally, I thing a [Where you come from]/[What you do for a living]/[What makes you special]-spread works best for most settings.

Yeah...I'm just having trouble getting a grip on how to implement the last one [what makes you special].  I guess I can customize that to each character...making it a magic keyword for two of them and coming up with something else for the third (not sure what, though...)

Tom B.

[CCW]

Hi Tom,

I've just gone through the same thing with my campaign.  Two of the characters were pretty easy because they were already multi-classed (we were converting from d20) but I was stumped on the other two.  I did what I find often works: I asked the players what they thought was important.  We pretty much had a new character generation afternoon.  

I suggested that they make new Heroquest characters, using the campaign to that point as character background, but without feeling that they had to be tied too tightly to the old character sheet.  One of my players has just finished his MA in translation so I likened the process to translating poetry: you can't hope to translate word for word and at the same time keep the sense, let along the feeling and music, of the original.

One of them partially redesigned her character to fit what she'd really been doing in the campaign and suggested a sort of magical keyword based on identifying and uncovering demons.  The other built his third keyword around a demon living inside him, which up till then hadn't had much effect on play except to be his point of view character for game write-ups.

All that aside, you might just e-mail your players and ask each one to define his or her character according to a formula like:

[name] is a [occupation/main societal role] from [homeland] who is special because s/he .... and let them finish it.

Charles

[lightcastle]

Hi Tom.

Add me to the group that says the basic breakdown is  [Where you come from]/[What you do for a living]/[What makes you special].

The occupations in question are 'magent', which is specifically a spy who uses magic as a part of his abilities, and 'priest' which is easy to handle using magical keywords, but becomes more problematic if you're not.

You could certainly take the HQ approach here. Priest is not the same occupation as someone who casts the spells of their god. It's a social function. Could you not argue the same thing with spy? Even Wizard is an occupation separate from Adept, the magical classification.

Maybe the occupation keyword needs to be broken off a bit from the idea of character class, and those special abilities moved more into the third keyword? (a thought, I'm not sure of the system you are using now)

[Minx]

That could be quite helpful, thanks.

NP, just send me a PM with your e-mail address,and I´ll send it to you. :)

M

[Tom B]

I've never believed in point-to-point translations.  I've always taken the approach of re-designing the character from concept using the new system.  Otherwise you're doing the character concept and the new system a disservice.  Unfortunately, the campaign has wandered through about five sets of mechanics trying to find one that "fits".  (I am, however, flattered that my group has put up with this and insists on me continuing the campaign because of how much they enjoy their characters.)  At this point, the concepts of the characters are quite well defined.  

The characters have evolved over the past five years, but the core concept of the magent character began as a spy who was trained to employ magic to achieve his goals.  Over time, the character has grown and changed.  He now uses his abilities to further the goals of his deity, and has become the leader of a new order dedicated to combining magic with their other skills to fight supernatural threats to the land.

The ex-slave pitfighter has concluded a quest to be reunited with his family and heritage, which was far stranger than he could have ever expected.  From a brute fighter, he now spreads the word of Yunume as a Priest, although he won't hesitate to solve his problems with a sword should it seem appropriate.  It's a struggle for him, but he sees it as his calling.  Priests and magic do go together in this setting.

The least developed character is (relatively) new to the group, and the player is very used to D&D style play.  He's hesitant to 'grow' his character the way the others have, and has stayed closed to his roots as an outcast noble who worked his way up in the city guards based on his own skills.

There is a brand new character as well, but being brand new, he will be much easier to develop from scratch.  

Two of them view magic as integral to their characters.  One doesn't use magic.  The other is undecided at this point.

[Tom B]

Maybe the occupation keyword needs to be broken off a bit from the idea of character class, and those special abilities moved more into the third keyword? (a thought, I'm not sure of the system you are using now)

I see what you mean.  Certainly I could split off a separate magic keyword for them.  (Although the magic keyword for Magent might be part of the list of abilities for the occupation.)

I still need to find something equivalent for the non-magic user.  An additional keyword so he gets something in exchange for -not- having magic.  (There is something appropriate I could add for him, but it occurred after character creation.  At this point I'm trying to re-create their characters as they were at the beginning.  Then I'll add on additional abilities and keywords as necessary to reflect their current status.)

Tom B.

[Minx]

I still need to find something equivalent for the non-magic user.  An additional keyword so he gets something in exchange for -not- having magic.  (There is something appropriate I could add for him, but it occurred after character creation.  At this point I'm trying to re-create their characters as they were at the beginning.  Then I'll add on additional abilities and keywords as necessary to reflect their current status.)

Tom B.

Give them the option to take another occupation or homeland keyword, if it fits your character. Or another way would be to design special "Hero"-keywords ("MAgic" would also fall under this category.), that represent higher dedication to a specific thing. For example, a fighter-character probably has a keyword like Soldier or Warrior, there are millions like him all over the world. But, if this character now gets a specific "Hero"-keyword like Swordmaster, that gives him abilities like "Artfull Swordplay", that heavily Augment this characters sworlfighting abilitie and maybe even comes with semi-magical power (ie.: Works like, for example, Theism, ruleswise, but isn´t magical per-se ingame and only represents his specific training.), then this character would be something special, maybe even unique. And all that without (ingame) magic.

M

[soru]

The least developed character is (relatively) new to the group, and the player is very used to D&D style play.  He's hesitant to 'grow' his character the way the others have, and has stayed closed to his roots as an outcast noble who worked his way up in the city guards based on his own skills.
.

Based on that, I'd make his 'rank' in the city guards his special keyword. Where one of the other characters might solve a problem with a fireball or invisibility spell, he can do it by ordering the a search of a house, an arrest, a protection detail, and so on.

soru

[droog]

Maybe having two keywords to begin with isn't so bad. Keywords aren't balanced in HQ anyway. And most people start with at least 3.5 (Homeland/Religion, Occupation, Magic) and possibly Common Magic as well--an Imperial Citizen will have yet another keyword. Your setting already gives less (3), so two is not that far from the average.

You could give him some extra points if he doesn't like it. Otherwise as soru suggested: an Advanced Occupation keyword as in HW for his position in the guards.

[Tom B]

I imagine that's what I'll end up doing.  Probably an additional Keyword.  (Of course, he's also the only one without Racial abilities, but that's not a major problem.)

Tom B.

[Mike Holmes]

Darkurthe, huh, one of the classic heartbreakers. Perfect.

"Magent"? Heh, they's gots thoze in Rolemaster, too!

As lightcastle mentioned, the world that I've converted is the old Rolemaster campaign world called Shadow World.

Here we go.

First, I can only recommend what you're embarking on as a really fun thing to do. For me, the "work" of conversion has been a blast. Think of it as a game as you go along, and it'll be less a pain than a pleasure. Truthfully, with Glorantha so sparsely enumerated so far, in fact, people playing that game have to do a lot of keyword creation, too.

Think of it this way: as soon as you've got ten homelands enumerated, you're almost to the point that any starting player in Glorantha is at, given that this is all they start with. Beyond that, we're all in the same boat, and need to be able to make up keywords. More than that, however, making keywords is pretty easy, once you've done a couple, and a great way to realy inleash creativity in the chargen process. Check in a couple of months on the Glorantha site, under "narrator advice" on the support page, for an article that I've written on the general subject of improvising keywords.

Magic, as an adjunct of the homelands is, you are correct, by far the most complicated part. But the good news is that it's less work than it looks to be.

First, it's a fallacy that all characters in HQ have magic keywords. The specialized magic keywords, even the common magic keywords are both optional. Nobody has to take either. Yes, you get the "religion keyword" for the society you're in, and that might give you some magic abilities automatically, but that's only if the religion is enumerated that way. In any case, a few animist tradition charms does not a mage make of a character.

Now, that said, it would seem pretty unlikely that, given the option to do so, that players would pass on these "free" keywords. From another POV, it would seem as though a character who had one was more powerful than one without. So why pass?

Well, players do. Of my latest batch of new players, in fact, the majority went this way. Why? Just not part of the character concept.

In fact, if you like I can lay out for you why the system makes it so that it's really not all that advantageous to have more abilities in terms of overall power (Droog gets into some of that). In fact, you'll find that with Advanced Experience that keywords aren't nearly as limiting as they at first seem. The point being that, in fact, not having magic becomes as attractive as having it, merely because of the conspicuousness of it's lack. It's a way to make a unique character. "What makes you special?" is that you're character is "normal."

What I'm getting at is that I have the same potential "problem" with my game - not everyone in Shadow World has magic. But it hasn't actually been a problem at all in play. I fretted about it, made conversions to ameliorate the problem, and then never had to use them.

Now, what this means, however, is that you'll still tend to get a lot of characters who use magic. This isn't a bad thing, IMO, however. Consider that it's likely that as a conversion of D&D that the setting was forced to say that those who use magic are trained in it vocationally, due to the way that the system balanced character types. Can't have the fighter with magic, now can we, or they'd be too powerful!

The point is that if the setting is really magical, then perhaps it would do to "Gloranthify" it a tad. This means that it'll take less effort to change things over, and that the result will be a more interesting fantasy world than the one the original system forced to emerge.

If you're converting existing characters, then your concern would not be in terms of getting the "wrong" character types, but in the characters without magic being less powerful. Again, even without those keywords, they'll be fine. Consider that a starting character, no matter how many keywords they have, can only have, at most, a 7W rating in any one ability. Yes, in theory, a character with magic will be able to boost that up by, perhaps 6. But while the player is spending on having more magic, the warrior is spending instead on "Strong as Bull" and the augments come out about the same. Each will have it's strenghts, and nobody will notice a power difference.

I could go on, but trust me.

Another thing to consider in favor of slight Gloranthification. Are there small magic items in the game? Little prayers uttered before combat? That sort of thing? This is common magic. More characters in conversion should have common magic than you might think. Common magic doesn't make somebody a "paladin" or anything, it just makes them somebody who's spent time in a magical world. Worst case scenario, if you're sensing people getting upity about balance, simply allow either the CM or the Specialize Magic Keyword for a character and not both. Balances out very, very well.


Given this, there's no problem with the Magent and Priest in question? Or is there still? I'm a little confused on where the problem lay there. Using HQ chargen, I've not failed to date to create any character archetype anyone has come up with. Including all of the many, many Rolemaster professions. Given that you're not doing "point to point" conversion, I see even less problems here. None at all, in fact, in terms of keywords.

Consider very, very strongly using lavish amounts of Advanced Experience in these conversions. These are not "starting" characters, so don't make them conform to the HQ "starting" character level of ability - which is very, very green. Not incompetent, but fresh out of school or somesuch.

For example, the ex-Gladiator should get an extra keyword to represent that, perhaps at a lower level to represent being rusty (I think the book suggests 13). Have they been around, know a lot of languages? Then they get the Traveler keyword as well. Just generally experienced? Then give them at least 1 point to add to their starting keyword levels per year of "adventuring". If not 3 to 5 times that. Also, give them a pile of extra points to spend as they like - about 5 times as many as they get Advanced Experience points.

Don't worry, this can't possibly make them too tough. In fact, you'll be lucky to get them to seeming as tough as they were previously.

If you really, really, really still feel the need to "balance", then do it here with these points. Don't give an extra keyword to "replace" a missing magic one.


Now, back to the hard part, as I said, which is creating magic methods. Here, too, I can only suggest Gloranthifying. No, not taking on Gloranthan cultures and religions or anything, but just the notion of where magic comes from. Basically, magic in Gloranthan comes from four sources, which I bet you can find in your setting (note, I'm gambling here, I've never read it).

Theism - there are gods, you said so. So, they have priests, no? Note how in the book Priest is an occupation separate from Initiate or Devotee. Got holy warriors (Paladins or such)? These are warriors who are Initiates or Devotees of the right god.

Animism - are there spirits? Check carefully - are there elves, faries, or such? Then animism fits. Druids? That's easy, animists of plant or animal spirits or both. Shamans? Direct conversion. Magicians who deal with charms? Tribal societies? Horse societies? "Barbarians?" Look for animists in their witches, hedge wizards, and the like. IMO, discovering the spirit side of a heartbreaker is tremedous fun.

Wizardry - is magic in the world said to come from some "force" or "mana" or somesuch? The "worship" of this "essence" is wizardry. Oh, sure it seems secular in your game, and it is more or less. But that doesn't mean that the deep study that's supposed to occur for these types doesn't work perfectly as worship. That is, the parallels are perfect, even if there's no monotheistic god at the head of all of it. Does the sort of magician in question learn from books? Then his school is heavy on the Grimoires. Do they use "mental powers"? Then the school has just spells.

I was surprised, pleasantly by how little you really have to do to alter any of these to get the same magic tropes to be able to be used.


Anyhow, any specific questions about any of this as it pertains to the conversions? Or would you like to run through an example of one of your characters?

Mike