Hard Time (Prison RPG)

[jburneko]

I'd call you Jesse but would rather not unless it's your real name ...

Hey Ron, just what are you trying to say?

Well, in all seriousness I think Ron is refering to my masochistic methods of trying to produce dramatic & thematic stories by playing games with systems that really don't support that all too well.  The classic example would be my Deadlands game which I would argue works very much like your current prison design.

The Deadlands system is VERY VERY good at producing a gritty and 'realistic' Western-Horror 'feeling' from the way the high-noon dueling works, right down to all the great system-color elements like the playing cards and the poker chips.  What it does not do is facilitate any kind of emotional or thematic form of play beyond, 'Oh shit, I've been shot!  Somebody get Doc Brown!'  Any kind of human emotional drama I have to facilitate all on my lonesome via raw GMing techniques and proding my players with hot pokers.

I've got a bit of a reputation around here for doing this to myself repeatedly.  I've done it with D&D.  I've contemplated doing it with SLA Industries.  It's a rather exhausting endeavor.  I continue to do it because I have this weird RPG Ethic: If I'm going to play in a given games SETTING then I'm going to play with that given games SYSTEM.  This stems from my protest of game companies converting their signature products to d20.  Now what kind of protester would I be if I then went out and converted all my personal games to Story Engine?  Call me crazy.  But all this is beside the point.

So, basically, I heartily back up Ron's recommendation of examining both the RPG Theory article and some alternative game designs.  I also recommend actually playing these games as they don't look like much on paper but produce LOADS of difference in actual play.  I think you will find that the line of thinking with your system design stems more from some deep rooted but flawed asumptions than what you are actually trying to achieve.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Looks like some clarification is necesary. I was referring to the web-handle "Reverend Custer," who is the main character in the comic The Preacher, and whose first name is Jesse. Thus my first line in the last post had nothing to do with Jesse Burneko ...

Rev, what can we call you? I like to use people's real names, but I also understand that people don't always like to have them used, so just let me know what you'd like.

Best,
Ron

[jburneko]

Ah, sorry, Ron I thought you were sarcastically refering to my constant struggles between systems, my goals and my players. :)

Jesse

[Bailywolf]

As for a detailed combat system...

I don't think this game can derive any kind of benifit from a detailed (read: complex) combat system.

Prison violence isn't like combat in most RPG senses.  It isn't really about exchanging blows until one guy goes down.  There are basicly three kinds of prision violence:

Rumbles
Freak Outs
Murder


Rumbles are semi-organized fights along the lines of "meet me at the fountain after school.  3:00 high!"  Rumors spread about some action- usualy a grudge or dispute.  The unoficial prision netowrk starts running interference to keep the screws from figuring it out (but sometimes they don't even care).  Bets are places.  Two (or more) fighters mix it up.  Sometimes it bare-knuckles, sometimes with imporvised weapons (including the 'yellow vest'- body armor made by taping phone books or other thick hunks of paper to the body).  This is the closest to the calssic rpg fight.

Freak Outs are spontaneous violence.  The potential for this is always brewing, and some guys are always ready to pop.  The guards watch out like hawks for this kind of thing.  Sometimes prisoners have wepaons, but usualy it's a bloody, eye-gouging, lunch-tray slammin free for all.  Here, speed and sheer bloody-mindedness win the day.  I knew a guy who did time in Louisiana (a bad scene).  He said the first thing he did was single out the biggest guy in the cafeteria and jump him right in front of everyone, screaming bullshit about how the guy insulted his momma.  He jacked him with a metal tray then kicked the crap out of him before they guy could even stand up.  Here, who's meanest wins.

Murder.  This is all about cold revenge.  Your old cellmate used to drive you crazy, then when he got transfered he stole all you skin mags and spread rumors that you were his bitch.  This mook has to die.  You cash in a favor with the Latin Kings (you have a connection with a crooked guard who supplies you with weed... you sell to the Kings cheep to keep them liking you).  Three days later while your old pal is waiting in line for work detail, a llifer with an armful of tattoos and a sharpened toothbrush breezes by, pops the mark four times in the kidnies with the shank without breaking stride, and goes back to his cell, where he brushes his teeth.  This aint combat.  It's murder.




Violence in prison is fast, furious, and brutal but rarely fatal.  Murder is surprisingly common, and usualy a lot more permenant.  Even is a murder attempt fails, it almost garuntees a transfer for the vic.  That takes a guy out of the game just as surely as death.

[contracycle]

Violence in prison is fast, furious, and brutal but rarely fatal.  Murder is surprisingly common, and usualy a lot more permenant.  Even is a murder attempt fails, it almost garuntees a transfer for the vic.  That takes a guy out of the game just as surely as death.

I agree, probably any "combat system" should have this kind of thing as a result rather than a contest.

[ReverendCuster187]

These are some great responses.

After reading your post , I'll probably be re - examining combat. It is going to use the same sortr of system, as i like what I have already, but is going to be even more brutal. Surprise and who hits fuirst are going to be the most important factors.

Oh, and I have absolutely no experience in this type of stuff whatsoever, except a few little crap games I wrote a few years ago, aged about 11. Good for me then, but well...

[hardcoremoose]

Any kind of human emotional drama I have to facilitate all on my lonesome via raw GMing techniques and proding my players with hot pokers.

Hey Jesse, hot pokers (and along that same line, cattle prods) are a great idea!  A wonderful use of color within Deadlands that I'm surprised the authors missed (I mean, hell, the system is pretty masochistic)  Maybe there's something similar that could be co-opted for the prison game?

This is completely off topic, but I agree with you about using system and setting for the games they were designed for.  It's some strange hang-up I have about authorship and loyalty to an author's vision, even if that vision is absolute crap.  Paul, on the other hand, doesn't have this same problem...

- Scott

[Skippy]

Wuh thu uh luh uh tuh uh ih oh.*

[Well, therein lies a tale all its own.]

Seriously, though, like some of your other posters, I would never be interested in playing a prison game, any more than I would be interested in playing Contract Law: The Binding by White Wolf.  Too much realism.  RPG's for me have always been an escape, not a reminder of the harsh realities of life in our world and time.

However, I would be interested in say, four generations of enslaved humans on a penal colony planet.  Or, the conquered sentient descendants of dinosaurs in servitude to humans.  Or humans living in underground colonies, monitored by the computer, and unable to leave the complex (due to the irradiated world-legacy of the commies.)

You can still deal with the same issues, the same realities, the same cold equations, without the stigma of the real world.

Skippy (Scott)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rev,

Did you see my post on the first page, from 30 Jan 2002 17:31? I am very interested to see what you think about the systems that I mentioned. They're free and easy to look at from the Library, and they produce "good story" in play in ways that your proposed system will have problems with.

Here is my next question for you. You stated that my goal #3, creating a good story, was important to your vision for the game. Very briefly - in just one sentence, phrased as a question or issue, what might a story created through play of your game be about?

Best,
Ron

[lumpley]

I'd just like to say that I'd play a prison game.  The uglier and more brutal the better.  Especially if my character could make meaningless and hypocritical moral gestures and then die squealing.

So don't be dissuaded.

-Vincent

[Marco]

Some suggestions (from watching Oz):

You could give your characters oh, say, a dice pool. The pool represents their past: actions, friends, and enemies.

During the game (maybe only during the "new guys arive" scenes) a player can introduce an ally--make a roll. On a 1-5 you get an ally of porportionate power (5 being the most). On a 6 you get an enemy of randomly determined power. You get to define the new character (maybe the GM defines enemies or has veto power).

Reputation: You can choose to call on your rep. When doing so, roll one or more dice: the level of success indicates that another party has heard of your exploits. This can be done to add or help with an approriate skill ("I was a safe-cracker") or to increase Confidence (the guy heard I was a bad mo-fo).

As presented this is obviously pretty rudimentary but, from watching Oz, I conclude that often a character will run into past associates or those acquainted with him (maybe reputations gone bad could be a guard has heard of you).

Also: there's a book called You Are Going To Prison. Check it out. Scary.

-Marco

[Mike Holmes]

Here is my next question for you. You stated that my goal #3, creating a good story, was important to your vision for the game. Very briefly - in just one sentence, phrased as a question or issue, what might a story created through play of your game be about?

Oh, no, no, no, Ron. Read again. He wants #1 with accidentally resulting number three as a side benefit. When you said story, you didn't ask if he meant in the literary sense, or that other sense that people usually use. I'm suspecting it's the latter. Personally, I think that I'd rather see a Gamist prison game than a Narrative one (oops, slipped).

Mike

[Marco]

I gotta go with Mike on that one--Prison is a perfect Gamist environment: everyone has to watch every one else's back. If the player wants story out of that, they can play with a GM whose an entertaining story-teller (I can imagine some pretty skin-crawling narrativst premisies set in prison ... "what are you willing to do for ...")

-Marco

[ReverendCuster187]

OK, heres a general answer to a number of Q's

The game will probably be 'Gamist', although not having been here very long, I'm guessing as to thats meaning.

I'm gonna go check out those free games now.

The game will almost certainly be a modern day, down to earth, realistic setting, rather than a far future prison planet. I will probably include some notes on these settings, but I think to shy away from the games subject matter would weaken its impact.

The current combat system is in place for straight up rumbles, with two or more fighters duking it out face to face. Sneaking up on somone, or jabbing them while their not looking will be harder, but much more deadly.

And you can call me whatever you wanna, but heres most of my more common names : RC187, that lil' boy with the prison game, Aggy Type ( dont ask), or what everyone out of the net calls me : Jay. :-)

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Bailywolf gets the Blue Ribbon for nailing how "combat" works in a prison environment. Awesome description.

The Wick and I were talking about a prison/criminal game awhile back. The way you built your character had to do with a) how much time you did and b) what crime(s) sent you to jail in the first place. Which means that the worse the criminal, the better he was (in game terms).

I could definitely see this as a game, in the traditional sense of the word (like a Cheapass game without the humor). Heck, I always wanted Will Wright to design SimPrison (eek!). But really, I would want to dive into a prison game where the emphasis is on character development, roleplaying and thematic punch (I enjoy reading material dealing with this subject...er, take that as you will...and would want to play a character dealing with this situation).

But man, ditch the combat system you came up with. I think something like Herr Burneko's Isolation would be incredibly appropiate...especially with all the cultural/idealogical ties involved in prison life (the Mob, the AB, latin and PR gangs, black Muslims, etc.).