As-Yet-Unnamed-Game [Fantasy]

[GreedIsGod]

I am working (mainly a collection of ideas, as I do all my thinking at work without access to a pen and pad) on a game setting (no thought given to mechanics as of yet) that is to be a fantasy setting with your typical mix of midde ages and ancient world technology.
I have come to a big stumbling block in the development of a general world idea because I want to create a system of magic which is logical and cosistent, wherein the consequences of the magic and its capabilities are used by rational actors and the state of the game world reflects this.  This almost immediatly eleminates the classic magic system (D&D) and creates serious issues for the more 'open' magic systems (Mage).  I'll basically give a view of the notions of 'won't work' and some thoughts at solutions I've had.
#1 You can't just have an arbitrary set of 'spells' because that, basically, doesn't make any sense.  Okay, if you had deities you could have them (by fiat) handing out edicts, but why in the world would they do that?  Not to mention a host of other logical issues with superintelligent, superpowerful immortal transdimensional beings who can't see to conjure up fission power and are obsessed with the actions of little monkeys.  So the list-o-spells system clearly isn't going to work as it's neither rational nor internally consistent.
#2 The 'open ended' system has some problems, too.  For example it is going to be a fantasy world, so the technology level has to be pretty low.  That means that something has to stop people from using magic in common devices, as techology or to develop technology.  I can imagine that a lot of transmutation, polymorphing and energy generation capacities would entirely screw up any possibility of low-tech as you've just developed the capacity to build and power electronic machinery, titanium vehicles etc.  Also by the notion of supply curve if these things could be done they would be done by more and more people, elevating the general wealth of the population and eleminating the basis of feudalism.
#3 Magic in general.  Sort of like above, but take into account the effects of magic.  If someone can generate cold (very easy in most magic systems) one can create refrigeration, the source of the largest population boom in the history of mankind.  Being able to cool food for storage or transportation means the population is going to explode, leaving very little room for the artisans, tiny hamlets and unoccupied wilderness so popular in fantasy gaming.  Also all those people gathered together is going to increase the division of labour and drive up the technolgy and prosperity of everyone, another issue that will disrupt the fantasy atmosphere.  Or how about divining and remote viewing capacities, or teleportation's effect on commerce and politics.
#4 Magic as healing.  The ability to heal is extremely complex, as one must rearrange molecular things or accelerate natural proccesses, provide the energy and materials neccesary for such action and so on.  That level of manipulation means that the magic should also be able to develop microcircutry, tiny machines, high-quality engineering and also extremely, instantly deadly results.  Actually even simpler methods apply, for if you can generate 20 or 30 pounds of force (telekinesis) you should be able to kill a man instantly by crushing his brain - even the biggest, toughest SOB has a mushy brain that is easily destroyed by the force it takes to swing a ballpin hammer.  The lethal implications of such capacity are staggering.

This means that magic has to be difficult, in limited supply and limited in it's effects (it cannot, for example, grant knowledge in and of itself, or else the technology/engineering edge would annihilate the dark ages tech level, because technology can be spread very easily even if magic itself is difficult).  I mainly want magic to have practical combat and civil value, yet without leaving unanswered questions like why don't magicians use magic fire to make steam engines, or transmutation to make chemical substances like gunpowder or napalm, or polymorphing to make complex machine parts for rifles and tanks.

Also magic should make sense, there should be a 'why' to it.  The 'why' need not neccesarily be known to the world, or be answered but it should not reduce to pure arbitrariness - statements like 'the gods' or 'other dimensions' can 'explain' anything and, in fact, explain nothing.

Some solution ideas and their problems:
Quantum Probability: The quantum probability theory has the advantage of conforming, at least generally, to known physics and therefor logical and consistent.  The problems with quantum probability as an explanation for magic are several, ones I can think of as follows.
Why can humans (or other animals) manipulate quantum probability?  Clearly we possess no such capacity as it is, and the complexity required for such organs would surely be above and beyond that which already exists in our brains (or any manufactured technology).  If this level of biological complexity exists, where does it come from?  Why isn't it manifest in the rest of their physiology, why only this one specific capacity while leaving the rest typical human?  The answer given in Aberrant (WW, Superhero) is that some sort of 'node' exists and has evolved spontaneously from a weird accident (explosion of a satellite).  This leaves something to be desired from a biological standpoint but even if we accept it as an explanation for why, it leaves the problems of consequences.
If people can manipulate quantum probability what is to stop them from being omnipotent?  String theory aside, quantum mechanics is basically the core of reality and changing quantum probability effectively eleminates the laws of entropy, motion and uncertainty.  Clearly, then, such control must be limited.  But why, and why to specific effects?  Even if only very weak general effects are allowed the energy requisite (which is, after all, the name of the game) that would allow a person to do any practical thing like transmutate substances or even shoot lighting would also allow him to ram particles together and create nuclear explosions or, if very imprecise, he could still be 'brain crusher' as I noted above.  The Aberrant explanation is psychosomatic, basically, people's manifested powers are limited by their psyche.  I find this explantion wanting, however, as I can't imagine everyone, or even a majority, would be so limited that they could not conceive of absolute power in at least some realms of action.
Nanites: Nano-machines are a favourite explanation of mine: little molecular machines are whirring about everywhere and humans have some evolved or bioengineered capacity to control them, forcing them to reassemble molecules or release energy resulting in (respectively) transmutation or blasts of fire.  Of course this again raises the problem of results, nanomachines could, even if only vaguely controlled, disassemble someone's eyes or brain or a number of other rapidly lethal things without much precision control.  And if they are not precise and/or powerful enough to kill something as big and soft as a primate, why should they be able to work with harder, smaller and more complex tasks that are so commonly called upon by wizards?

So, as you can see, I have no real solutions.  Any suggestions?

[Shreyas Sampat]

I wanted to note, to begin with, that this post of yours seems to assume that magic operates in scientific manners, on a universe that can be described and interacted with in a scientific way.

I think this science crap is getting in the way of your fantasy vision.

[GreedIsGod]

I wanted to note, to begin with, that this post of yours seems to assume that magic operates in scientific manners, on a universe that can be described and interacted with in a scientific way.

I think this science crap is getting in the way of your fantasy vision.

Although I could assume the arbitrary this-and-that which is common in fantasy there are two problems:
#1 It's derivative and repetitive.  If I wanted a game where magic does things for no apparent reason with no apparent source or form of causation, I could just play D&D or read some Wheel of Time novels.
#2 Even if you did the above, it still doesn't make sense.  I know, "Just don't think about it" but one of the things with being a critical human being is that you don't turn criticism off.  Most people are uncritical (or just not competent in their criticism) of movies, games, politicians, novels, sales pitches and philosophy.  As a result almost everything they watch, do, think and believe is absolute nonsensical crap with no relation to reality.  As Ludwig Wittgenstein pointed out we cannot concieve of a thing which is 'illogical', when something is 'illogical' it is in fact nothing - it is noise without meaning, and to discuss such things (ala theology, debates over magic) is to literally fail to know what you are talking about.  Because I am an abnormally critical person and such nonsense throws me off (because, once again IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE) I feel the desire to have a magic-esque system which is coherent and practicable.  
Some people may say "So what if it doesn't make sense" but this is the same as someone saying, "So what if the mystery story doesn't make sense?"  Because the whole point of a story is it's sense, a plot hole may be funny but it frustrated the entire design - a story without sense is not a story at all, but a series of gibberings.
Whenever I play a wizard and cast some spell to move objects at a range, why can't I crush someone's brain?  There's simply no good reason why I couldn't do that, and yet some arbitrary rubbish is always spewed forth by the DM.  Either make sense or take it out, I can't stand the silly fiat - it destroys the entire thread of the game.

[Cmonkey]

I suggest you take a look at Hero or GURPS...
in that order.

[GreedIsGod]

I suggest you take a look at Hero or GURPS...
in that order.

No experience with Hero, but GURPS I know.  GURPS is more realistic in terms of weapons combat, but it's magic system still doesn't make sense.  If you can generate 40lbs of force at a range of 20' then you should, by all rights, be able to kill someone instantly by smashing their brain.  Gurps, however, will have none of this.  You really shouldn't even have to roll or test, it's a physiological fact that your brain is soft and if it is smashed you die, instantly.
What I'm looking for at this point is not mechanics, though, but qualitive theories of operation.  Once I have that I can worry about quantification.

[contracycle]

OK.  I'm in full agreement with the majority of your analysis - but you have dismissed the elimination of physical sciences too soon.

Certainly I share the view that if you are not talking about something thats in some sense verifiable you might as not talk about it all, but this does not in any way mean that physcial realities of our world need to be carreid over into the game world.  Now that seems like an obvious thing to say but there are a number of fantasy worlds set on actual spherical planets orbiting suns - why?

OK so we figured out the world was round a long time ago.  Neverthelessb this degree of physical science IMO undermines the fantastic element, tends to prompt for the mundane answer.  I much prefer ideas that try to present the game reality in some manner suitable to the feel, like Ars Magica's model of divine and infernal regions and powers.

What is missing from most magic systems is cosmology.  Both theology and science have cosmological functions for their communities, but in RPG magic is almost always just a tool, or a force of nature rather like electricity.  The magic system must incorporate some of this explanation of how things arfe and how they came to be in order to be complete and satisfying as MAGIC, I feel.

[GreedIsGod]

OK.  I'm in full agreement with the majority of your analysis - but you have dismissed the elimination of physical sciences too soon.

Certainly I share the view that if you are not talking about something thats in some sense verifiable you might as not talk about it all, but this does not in any way mean that physcial realities of our world need to be carreid over into the game world.  Now that seems like an obvious thing to say but there are a number of fantasy worlds set on actual spherical planets orbiting suns - why?

OK so we figured out the world was round a long time ago.  Neverthelessb this degree of physical science IMO undermines the fantastic element, tends to prompt for the mundane answer.  I much prefer ideas that try to present the game reality in some manner suitable to the feel, like Ars Magica's model of divine and infernal regions and powers.

What is missing from most magic systems is cosmology.  Both theology and science have cosmological functions for their communities, but in RPG magic is almost always just a tool, or a force of nature rather like electricity.  The magic system must incorporate some of this explanation of how things arfe and how they came to be in order to be complete and satisfying as MAGIC, I feel.

The issue is not neccesarily even whether physical sciences themselves (it may be entirely impossible to manipulate quantum probability) but the logic and consistency of any alternative system.  Any system with deities or cosmology is inevitably entirely illogical, it fails to explain anything, it is an endless series of why's and how's without a core philosophy or sensical statement of fact and result.  If you change one thing, something will result from it, change the gravitational constant of the Universe and the damn Cosmos will reshape, matter changes, every action has a reaction, every adjustment it's consequences.  And this is the primary issue, force is force, people are people (I've never seen a fantasy setting that denied the physiological construction of human beings, they just ignore it in some cases) and if people can bleed from knives and have their heads cut off and die (even if only some times) then you can kill them with the force it takes to move a heavily laden backpack.  The practical reason it is not easy in melee or ranged attack is that people are hard to hit and they hide, but if you can summon forces via magic then you can, neccesarily, kill them at the drop of a hat.  If superintelligent beings exist then they surely must be able to develop friggin' basic machinery, the Greeks knew the basics of a steam engine they just lacked the capital development to actually make and practice it.

As an immediate example Spiderman can be cut by a knife, ergo if he hits anything with even a small portion of his vast strength he should, if nothing else, rip the soft tissue off of his arm.  But he doesn't, and this doesn't make sense - either he should be invulnerable to small arms or he should die when he tries to lift a tank.

[GreedIsGod]

Well, let's skip magic for now as it seems insoluable.  What about personal arms?
In warfare spears and axes dominate, while swords are for the rich all purpose types who go about on horses.  But what is a practical personal weapon for someone wandering?  Bows are worthless in most circumstances, spears are a bit unweildy (and you do NOT chop with a halberd, stop making it do 96d4 damage - you poke and wiggle it), swords are expensive but seem a good option because they're all-purpose.

[Rob Carriere]

GreedIsGod,
I agree with your notion that you had best keep the existing physical sciences as-is, in order to explain the "mundane" parts of the world, from the reason leaves are green to the reason humans can digest cheese. If you want the level of internal consistency you seem to be aiming for, this is pretty much the only option.

For the same reason, magic, whatever it is, should be an additive, not a derivative in a game like this. If you use quantum mechanics, nanites, dimensional manipulation a la Bear's Moving Mars, or whatnot, you're inevitably going to run into awkwardness at the interface between the mundane and the magical. You have already shown this for the first two examples and I think the title of the novel should be sufficient to discourage considering the third example a viable solution.

On the other hand, if magic is its own thing, independent of physics as we know it, you can shape it any which way you want without being constrained by what is already known about physics.

Now it becomes a problem in reverse engineering. You want magic that is powerful enough to be a significant force, but you want to avoid insta-kill effects as well as anything that would set off the Industrial Revolution.

The industial revolution problem actually has a multitude of solutions outside the magic system. As you yourself already pointed out, a society sufficiently strapped for resources can have all the knowledge and skill you want, they will not be able to bootstrap into an industrial society. It could also be a cultural thing (which was the "problem" with the ancient Greeks at least as much as the lack of resources). The general attitude could be that such use of magic is vulgar or even evil.

Of course such a status quo could be challenged, perhaps successfully. That'd be the game, with the PCs on the one side or the other.

If you want it more absolute, then there must be something in the nature of magic that prohibits the formation of magical assembly lines. As long as you cannot get large numbers of reliable repetition out your magic, it is useless to any plan of industrialization and in fact will actively stand in the way of such plans (by making craftmanship more effective than it is in our world)

In the same way the insta-kills could be solved socially, much like the medieval rule of engagement that peons do not attack knights, or they could be solved by the properties of the magic system. In the former case you have the option of having the game be about the local equivalent of the Guldensporenslag --Battle of the Golden Spurs--.

Assuming you want both issues fixed in the magic system, this gives us the requirements:

- Magic must be hard to repeat
- Large scale magics of any kind must be hard
- Killing someone with magic must be difficult.

The middle one is easy, just have some line-of-sight or even touch-only requirement.

Hard to repeat can be accomplished by making each magical act an unreplenishable resource. Metaphorically, I am given a "dictionary" of magical effects at birth, and every time I use one, that effect dissappears from my vocabulary; I cannot do that again. Maybe I can achieve the same result using other "words", but I can never exactly repeat myself.

Killing can be made very awkward if there is some price, some kind of karmic burden, that I must pay when I kill with magic. Sure, there's going to be mages pissed of enough to do this, but there's going to be a powerful incentive to stick to more mundane means of killing.

After all, the only constraint that you gave is that the rules must be consistent, not that they must be "physical". You can get quite some milage out of building your magic on a moral, or an esthetical, or even an historical--you can only do what has already been done-- base. Logic is not constrained in its application to molecules and planetary orbits.

I hope the examples above help get your imagination unstuck. The very best rules, the strongest, most compelling logic is going to be the one that comes out of your passion for making this work.

SR
--

[GreedIsGod]

Interesting ideas.  I want to stay away from the more 'WTF?' type of solutions such as the dictionary concept, and the Modisette answer of 'chaos' vs. 'order', (either everything is chaotic or nothing is, you cannot have a middle ground that makes any sense) but something as follows might be a solution:
Suppose you've got a few basic, weak capacities which can be developed through whatever means such as: some sort of radio-energy emmision which can be utilized to scramble DNA and burn people, but has little practical application otherwise because it's not precision and no one has the damndest idea about photoelectric plate technology.  Then a couple of other effects like light-displacement/bending which allows magnification, blinding, invisibility and perhaps the focusing of light to the point where it becomes like a laser.  The last would have potential for precision engraving and might be used to help increase the production of certain arms and armour via sheet-metal, but is still not controllable and exact enough to be useful in real precision machinery development.  Then there is visible light generation, which lacks much energy but can be used to dazzle someone's eyes, light an area or 'write' something in the air.
Light-based magic removes the 'insta-kill' problem of kinetic energy while retaining some practical and martial value.  It also has limited technological applications, it can create heat and allow some more refined artisan work (via 'lasers' and and magnification) but doesn't have the ability to create real machining (although rapid replication via templates might be viable, increasing the propensity of farmers to use cheap metal implements made on a general plan, and such) which the scarcity of metals (pre-water pump technology) will keep in check.   There are many military implications, the ability to hide scouts and deliver energy assaults at the enemy lines working like stealth and artillery, but being rare and difficult enough to leave room for melee and archery.  This also allows us to sidestep the whole notion of superintelligent beings and deities who would likely ruin everything with their endless free time and limitless capital stock.
This system, however, lacks the robustness of the more common magical systems.

[GreedIsGod]

I want to make a socio-ethic that is different from what is common among Westerners, at least among some of the culture.  Some of the notions I want to deal with are:
Soldiers are not heroes and government bureaucrats are not 'civil servants'.  Of course most middle ages merchants and peasants were well aware of this, but the notion is often lost on fantasy game producers who are inspired by a mix of Romanticism and modern socialistic-democratic-etatism which is in fashion.  How different would a society be that by and large despised governance and martialry, IE what if there was a Lockean society in 1200AD, how would it differ from the middle ages and modern society?
Also little attention is often payed to the import of true Empires and City-States in a dark ages setting, something that never existed historically.  Due to the economic realities of the dark ages spanning empires could not be supported while at the same time totally independent cities could not exist.  However fantasy settings often drop them in, empires to numerous to name and Greyhawk comes to mind as a city state.  How would a mediaevil feudal society deal with empires and city-states?

[contracycle]

strange duplication removed

[contracycle]

Greed:

You mentioned Mage above; this it seems to me is a much better approach than attempting to attach magic to an otherwise physically deterministic universe.

Failing that, I would be inclined to favour pseudo-magic derived from technology.  That at least remains consistent and comprehensible, but denies any mysticism.

Soldiers are not heroes and government bureaucrats are not 'civil servants'.  Of course most middle ages merchants and peasants were well aware of this, but the notion is often lost on fantasy game producers who are inspired by a mix of Romanticism and modern socialistic-democratic-etatism which is in fashion.

Is it?  This sounds suspiciously like Randista screed to me; IMO the major problem with fantasy worlds that they project a completely false, consumerist economy which is utterly inappropriate to the period, and is derived IMO from an uncritical acceptance of capitalist dogma as universal.  It denies class relationships and thus cannot meaningfully represent a feudal society.

 How different would a society be that by and large despised governance and martialry, IE what if there was a Lockean society in 1200AD, how would it differ from the middle ages and modern society?

That said though, one influence worth exploring would be China, which of course developed an anti-martial public consciousness very early on, and by contrast to European rule-by-the-sword developed bureacratisation to a high art.

[lumpley]

Greedy, welcome to the Forge!

In this game of yours, what do the characters do?

Do you consider magic to be primarily a tool for the PCs to use, a hazard for the PCs to deal with, or a neutral but atmospheric feature of the setting?

Please don't dash back with "all three." Please imagine some people playing your game, having their characters do something - how does magic figure in your vision of play?

Also, if I may, what's your real name? Mine's Vincent.

-Vincent

[daMoose_Neo]

I say start working on the story and extrapolate it from there.
For my card game Twilight, I took some of the same look at it as you did ("Hey, that doesn't make sense!"), but I simply started with the basic thoughts on Magic and started to explain why these were true in my world:
-Magic using is, indeed, a rare feat.
-Extreme spell casting 'took a lot out of you'
-Spells are often cast with a series of words or incantations, accompanied by movement, gestures, or 'focuses', items that helped focus the power of the spell.

Okay, next step, why are these true?
I determined, was the traits had to be genetic. There was an extra gene in mages that was turned 'on'. This gene advocated the production of a minute chemical in the body of 'mage'.

How can that possibly affect the world around the mage?
Biblical reference here got me going on it- "And the Lord said..."
Traditional Magic relies on spoken word, but, to steal a phrase from you, that simply doesn't make sense- words have no meaning outside of the human understanding of them.
The substance, the chemical produced inside the mages body, is also found in almost all matter on a very, very, very small level, simply sharing enough particals to exist.
The *sound* of the incantation, combined with an already high concentration of the substance in this mage's body works like a resonating sound, amplifying the effect and affecting nearby matter. The movements and gestures of traditional spells exist to give a different spread of the substance in the Mages body and affect the spreading pattern of resonance. As for "focus" items, those respond to the resonance as well, altering it as it recognizes it and adding a new "wrinkle" so to speak to it. Thus, a spell which needs specific focuses won't work or work properly without them.
The substance in matter reacts to different situations: for example, when the matter is in freefall, it responds one way, if its burning it responds another. The spells work like toggle switches, tuning the substance to one state or another. Tuning it to "freefall" for example, would allow a rock to hover in midair.

Now, in humans, doing this burns through some of their accumulated chemical, thus spell casting taking "a lot out of you". The Mage's body, accustomed to the chemical in its system, finds itself unable to function properly without a certain level of of it in their system. Thus, diminished capacity, exaustion, ect.
An alternative to natural production of this chemical in my world came in the form of Moren, a substance derived from Vampire's blood that replenished the chemical balance inside a mage. To normal humans, however, taking the substance can kill you, your body unable to assimilate the energy suddenly being literally dumped into you.

But, where did all of this come from?
I went with a divine influance. I view Magic as something similar to the backdoor a programmer might write into something, allowing them entrance to the finished product to tweak it or adjust it. Magic, in my mind, is the same: it allows someone/thing the chance to bend the rules of nature momentarily.

Just sit down, play 20 Questions with yourself. Don't trash the traditional views on Magic because they might actually start you down a road