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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4285 Members Latest Member: - Jason DAngelo Most online today: 158 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: [T:COTEC] Is this to Kludgey?  (Read 2020 times)
RobMuadib
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Posts: 230


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« on: December 03, 2004, 06:43:49 AM »

Hi All

Work continues on the game. One section I am focusing on is my basic
damage system. The problem is the system I am using produces
outrageous results, 4x-5x-6x-8x-10x-12x+ base damage (depending on
the underlying weapon skill score) on the order of 1 in 1000, 1 in 3000, 1
in 10,000, types of odds. So what I chose to do was to simply ignore it.
Specifically, I came up with a rule that states there is a limit on the
maximum basic damage modifer total you can count, if it's over this limit
use the limit. The limit varies based on the Reality Rules in effect. In
Realistic reality, the limit is 20, good for a max of 2x base damage (BD),
in Gritty the limit is 25, 2.5xBD, in Action the limit is 30, 3xBD, in Heroic
the limit is 40, 4xBD, and Super-Heroic the limit is 50 and 5xBD. So is this
too kludgey?


To do damage differently would require a major shift in the mechanics.
Currently there is no seperate damage roll, the damage is figured from
your to-hit roll, made using my mitigated open-ending 2d6-2d6 roll. It is
based on a base damage value and produces a value in hit points applied
to the target as injury.

Currently the damage you do is based on four factors, the skill factor, the
attack factor, the Passive Defelection (PD) factor, and the active defense
factor.

The skill factor represents the skill with which the attack was
made. It is based on the attacker's skill score times a random factor,
calculated from positive dice pool of to-hit roll, with 1/2 the attacker's skill
score (1-20+, 5 competent, 10 Pro) the most common result. The attack
factor represents how good of a blow was landed by the attack, it is
determined by adding up dice in your negative dice pool of to-hit roll, with
5 the most common result. The Passive Deflection factor is a rating that
represents the ability of the target's armor to cause a blow to glance off
or be deflected, it is from 1-5 usually, lower ratings most common. The
active defense factor is based on the success result score of target's
partially successful active defense, either a block, parry or dodge, with
1/2 of the defender's skill score the most common result. The active
defense factor will always be less than attacker's success result score
however, otherwise attacker wouldn't have hit.


You determine a subtotal based on each of these factors. the BDM total is
the skill factor subtotal plus the attack factor subtotal minus the PD factor
subtotal minus the active defense factor subtotal.  You compare the BDM
total to the CORE table to convert to the BDM, which is in effect a
multiplier you apply to the base damage.


Now 86% of the time or so the damage will be within 1/2x to 2x the base
damage. However it is the outside results that screw things up. Depending
on the underlying Skill Score results can range from 3x-4x for a skill
score of 10, 4x-5x for a skill score of 12, 5x-6x for skill score of 15, 6x-8x
for skill score of 20, 8x-10x for 25 skill score, and 10x-12.5x for Skill
Score of 30. Of course these higher skills are only likely for supers or
other outrageous characters, average max for characters is around 10,
for professional skill, with a specialist having 12 and an expert 15, over
15 is master, over 20 grand master, over 30 Legendary, over 40 mythic.


Now why this screws up is because armor is a fixed value, called Damage
Resistance (DR), that subtracts from damage. A suit of chainmail would
be DR 4, plate DR 6, a Bullet proof Vest 8-10. Average broadsword is
base damage 4, 9mm pistol base damage 7. So broadsword will usually
do from 2 points to 8 points, 9mm pistol from 4 points to 14 points. 51%
of results will be 0.8x-1.25x base damage. So allowing outrageous results
would screw up system.

The simplest fix I could think of the BDM total limit. But I am wondering if
it feels too kludgey. I am not happy with it, but I see no other good fix.

Yeah I realize the system is hella crunchy and calculation intensive, but
hey at least you didn't have to make a second dice roll for damage:).


Best

Rob
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Rob Muadib --  Kwisatz Haderach Of Wild Muse Games
kwisatzhaderach@wildmusegames.com --   
"But How Can This Be? For He Is the Kwisatz Haderach!" --Alyia - Dune (The Movie - 1980)
RobMuadib
Member

Posts: 230


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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2004, 08:58:24 AM »

Hey, my original post might seem a little obtuse to people so I thought I
would include an example of the system in action so people can see how
things work.

Corporal Hicks' is taking a shot at an enemy guard. His Acting Score is
16, the result of his Body: REF aptitude of 6, and his Skill Score of 10. He
rolls the dice, 2 white, the positive, and two black, the negative,  getting P
[2, 5] N[2,3]. He is eligible for one bonus die for the High five rolled. It is
a positive die, the same as the die that spawned it. His player grabs
another white D6 and rolls it, getting a 3. He is not eligible for more bonus
dice, since he didn't roll a 5 on the bonus die, thus he adds the 3 just
rolled to his dice pool, leaving him with P[2, 3, 5] N[2, 3].

Adding up the positive dice gives him a total of 10 (2+3+5=10), from this
he subtracts the total of the negative dice, 5 (2+3=5). Thus his Dice Add
is +5 (10-5=+5) Adding this to his acting score of 16 gives him a Test
score of 21. His opposing score for the Test is 18, so he hits.

Having hit, we need to determine the damage. To determine the damage
we need to determine the basic damage modifier (BDM) total. The BDM
total is equal to the Skill Factor + Attack Factor - PD Factor - Active
Defense Factor.

First we determine the Skill Factor. To determine the skill factor we need
to determine a Success Total. We can add up to 6 1/2 of the dice in the
positive dice pool to calculate his success total. This is determined from a
dice step equal to Corporal Hicks' Body: REF of 13. There are only three
dice in his positive dice pool so we add up all of them to determine the
succes total. Looking at the positive dice pool, P [2, 3, 5] this gives him a
Success Total of 10. We compare the 10 to the Value column of the CORE
Table, we see that it corresponds to a Performance Factor of +0.

We add the Performance Factor of +0 to the GP Score corresponding to
Corporal Hicks' Skill Score of 10, which is 10. Comparing a GP Score of
10 to the CORE Table we see that it corresponds to a value of 10.0. Thus
Corporal Hicks' Success Result Score is 10, which gives him a Skill Factor
Subtotal of 10. This gives us a BDM total so far of 10.

Next we determine the attack factor. To do this we must count up dice in
the negative dice pool, we can count up to four dice to calculate the attack
factor. Looking at his negative Dice Pool N[2, 3] we see there are only
two dice, so we simply count all of them, getting an attack factor subtotal
of 5. Adding his attack factor to his skill factor gives us a BDM total so far
of 15.

Hicks' target's armor provides him with a PD of 1 versus gunshots, so we
subtract 1 from his BDM total for the PD factor. This gives us a BDM total
so far of 14.

Finally, we subtract the target's active defense factor, which is equal to
the success result score of the Test he made to defend against the attack.
Corporal Hicks' target got a success result score of 3 on his defense test.
This was less than Hicks' success result score of 10 for his attack, so the
target was only partially successful in his defense attempt. Subtracting the
3 from our BDM total gives us a final BDM total of 11.

<KLUDGE>
Corporal Hicks plays in an Action Reality, and thus has a BDM total limit of
30. His BDM total of 11 is less than the limit, so he determines his BDM
normally.</KLUDGE>

We compare the BDM total of 11 to the Value column of the CORE Table.
Looking at the value column of the CORE Table we see that a BDM Total
of 11 corresponds to a Performance Factor of +1, thus the basic damage
modifier, BDM is +1.

Corporal Hicks' Pistol has a DMG score of 9(8.0). We add the BDM of +1
to this to get a basic damage score of 10. Comparing a 10 to the GP
Score column of the CORE Table we see that it corresponds to a value of
10.0. Thus Corporal Hicks does 10 points of basic damage to the enemy
guard.

The enemy guard is wearing a DR 8 Vest, subtracting the DR from his
basic damage of 10 yields 2 points of penetrating damage. Comparing a 2
to the Value column of the CORE table we see that it corresponds to a GP
Score of 3. Thus his penetrating damage score is 3.

We add the Damage Type Modifier for Hicks' pistol, which is +2 for large
piercing (PC+) (yes I am ripping off GURPS 4th:) ) to his penetrating
damage score. 3 + +2 is 5. Comparing a GP Score of 5 to the CORE
Table we see that it corresponds to a value of 3.0. Thus Hicks target
suffers 3 points of injury to his BODY condition as injury.

This concludes the example. (I told you my system was crunchy)
Logged

Rob Muadib --  Kwisatz Haderach Of Wild Muse Games
kwisatzhaderach@wildmusegames.com --   
"But How Can This Be? For He Is the Kwisatz Haderach!" --Alyia - Dune (The Movie - 1980)
ethan_greer
Member

Posts: 869


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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2004, 09:11:02 AM »

At one point you say Hicks's Body: REF is 6, and at another point you say it's 13. Which is it?

Another question: Why not use the margin of success for something? Hicks gets a 21; he needed an 18. Why not use the difference, 3, for something? Just curious.
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RobMuadib
Member

Posts: 230


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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2004, 09:38:08 AM »

Quote from: ethan_greer
At one point you say Hicks's Body: REF is 6, and at another point you say it's 13. Which is it?


Ahh, didn't point that out very well. His Reflexes (Body:REF) is 13, which gives him a Body: REF Aptitude of 6, 1/2 of his Body:REF rounded down. (13/2=6.5, rounded down). Aptitude is used with skill scores to determine the Acting Score, not the Full attribute score. This fits with the weighting I wanted to give to attributes. Average man with competent skill would have Aptitude 5 and SKill Score 5, for an Acting Score of 10. The full attribute score determines the success dice limit dice step, how many dice you can count to determine a success total. So someone with greater score has better base ability, and can possibly achieve a greater level of success, assuming how lucky he gets on the open-ending.

Quote from: ethan_greer

Another question: Why not use the margin of success for something? Hicks gets a 21; he needed an 18. Why not use the difference, 3, for something? Just curious.

I Do use the difference between the acting score and the opposing score for figuring multiple actions. Otherwise I don't consider it, it's only pass/fail for basic success.
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Rob Muadib --  Kwisatz Haderach Of Wild Muse Games
kwisatzhaderach@wildmusegames.com --   
"But How Can This Be? For He Is the Kwisatz Haderach!" --Alyia - Dune (The Movie - 1980)
ethan_greer
Member

Posts: 869


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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2004, 10:12:14 AM »

No, it doesn't seem too kludgey to me, for what it's worth.

Here's another question. What's wrong with letting the chips fall where they may, and having potentially really high levels of damage 14% of the time?
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RobMuadib
Member

Posts: 230


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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2004, 10:35:44 AM »

Quote from: ethan_greer
No, it doesn't seem too kludgey to me, for what it's worth.

Here's another question. What's wrong with letting the chips fall where they may, and having potentially really high levels of damage 14% of the time?


Hmmm, something that I am still mulling over. But consider an assault rifle with a base damage of 20. on average it does between 10 and 40 points, but if you open it up it could whip out with 80, 100, 120 points of damage. The multiplier gets outrageous for high damages. It's no big deal if a knife with a base damage of 2 does 10 points, but 20 and 100 points seems to outrageous to me. That's what makes me pause.

Best

RobMuadib
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Rob Muadib --  Kwisatz Haderach Of Wild Muse Games
kwisatzhaderach@wildmusegames.com --   
"But How Can This Be? For He Is the Kwisatz Haderach!" --Alyia - Dune (The Movie - 1980)
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