[D20 FR] An adventure idea.

[jc_madden]

Not sure if this is really the place to post this so if it's not Dev's please move it or delete it as appropriate.  I play in a weekly forgotten realms game every Saturday.  One of our players is vacationing for the next two weeks and our GM has the playing itch.  Lots were drawn and I was select to be hung er.. GM for the next two weeks.  Our current group has been going for almost 6 months and we're in the level 5-6 range, we wanted something different so I told everyone to roll up level 12 dudes.  Here's the idea I have (and I've got about 5 days to get it ready!)

We have to "assume" a lot since we're starting at level 12, most games I prefer not to railroad players but for lack of time (2 gaming sessions which usually run us 12 hours each 2pm-2am) I am going to place them into the thick of it.  The adventure is set in "generic" fantasy and for D20 that's greyhawk.

Intro
The players receive a tiny package at their home/base of operations.  Within it is a letter from an old friend, the lovable old NPC type that's always getting into trouble.  He's an archeologist/treasure hunter and he's uncovered some extensive ruins buried under the sand in Erypt.  Included is a small clay idol, its image a badly worn reptilian figure bare-breasted with stomach swollen.  Bardic lore or anyone with ancient history would probably guess it's a fertility goddess or matron figure.  Divinatory magic places it at well over 1000 years old.  Any other attempts to learn about its origin fail.  Attempts to scry on the area show only vast endless desert.  Other means of divination bring on eerie visions of writhing lizards and bloodcurdling screams.  If the players don't immediately go to Eyrpt they receive another letter beseeching their aid as the archeological camp is under attack by an unknown enemy.

As the mystery unfolds....
The players arrive to find the camp swallowed by the sands, some evidence of foul play is found but there are no bodies found even after extensive digging.  A survey map of the dig is found and leads the PCs to the ruins of an ancient city and pyramid complex.  Studiers of this type of society will note that usually pyramid complexes were kept separate from the living cities consider to be strictly resting places for the dead.  They may be attacked (random encounters) by a patrol of lizard-like creatures bearing Egyptian arms/armor and incredibly organized.   At first there are just a few patrols of the peons (5th level warriors) but they use hit and run tactics and flanking techniques as well as targeting spell casters and using alchemy based grenade-like weapons. (Tangle foot bags and alchemists fire).  If the PCs leave and set up camp they are tracked and perused and harangued up to a mile away (the extent of they're Hivemind ability).  And if they set up camp less than 5 miles away they are eventually attacked again by an elite squad having a Broodlord (a leader who extends the range of the hivemind ability).  Among their ranks are dual kukri wielding monks, rangers, assassins, fighters, anti-paladins, vampires, necromancers who raise their fallen as undead.  This module makes heavy use of the Libris Mortis (new book from WoTC).  The queen is a huge breeding machine with lots of mind control powers and having elite guards as well as swarms of "broodlings" to protect her.  The king is actually an undead tomb guardian with some impressive powers (immune to turning, swarmshifter).

The problem I have is this; I have the great foe, the tactics, but no means of victory.  Basically they are an army of death worshipers that were defeated long ago by being entombed alive in their pyramid.  They used their Torpor ability to hibernate and were accidentally let loose by the archeologist.  Now they might go unstopped if someone can't figure out how to destroy them all/imprison them again.  Any ideas?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Usually, I prefer actual play posts really to be about actual play events. Sometimes exceptions sneak by ... for example, I don't crack down on Judd's (Paka's) posts because nearly always, his "idea for a game" threads turn into "and then we played it" threads within a week or so.

This one looks like it's in the same vein - so if you would, JC, please post about the actual play-events afterwards, here in this same thread. That'll preserve the integrity of the forum and make the thread, itself, very valuable for everyone.

Now for your topic! I'm going to assume that you guys have played a lot of D&D together, and that combat competence is expected - to the extent that if there isn't a fight in a session, then folks would wonder where it is.

1. I suggest eliminating your first step entirely. Just start at the damn camp, when they find everyone and the map marked "Go Here Now" sitting there for them. One such "go here" step is more than enough, in my view. They've already got the letter and the idol, and they've already decided to go to the camp, and there they are, no role-playing involved.

2. Remember that you are dealing with several brand new (i.e. fully optimized) 12th-level characters. No matter which D&D you're using, that is a pack of power - and usually, a very raw, unsophisticated power, in comparison to characters who've leveled up together from scratch or near-scratch.

It also strikes me that people might get involved in the usual "meet my character" posturing for quite a while. This is a necessary step in games like the one you're describing, because a big part of play is going to involve how well each person tactically constructed his or her character. The posturing is part of setting up expectations of confidence in one's tactics.

If you're trying to "get the story moving" (i.e. move them from pre-determined place to pre-determined place via what looks like their own decisions) while this is going on, it'll be pretty nerve-wracking.

3. I am completely puzzled by your comment about "no means of victory," which then goes on to describe the foes' competence. Am I reading you correctly, that you are talking about the player-characters' means of victory?

I'll go out on a limb and assume that's the case. In which case, I suggest ...

a) Screw any GM-conceived "means of victory." You made up the bad guys, so you play those bad guys. If the players can't win using their own guts and strategic skills, then they lose!

b) There isn't going to be any appreciation for how wonderful and fascinating your mystery and all this background stuff is. It's a two-session blowout, with fully-optimized cartoons for player-characters.

c) You're a bit on the spot, as interim GM. If you accept the role of "I must make sure they feel tension but actually win in the end, otherwise they won't have fun," then you are guaranteeing yourself amazing hassles and no fun. I suggest instead having fun being that interim-GM, and showin' em just what a bunch of Eryptian dead guys can do.

Final questions:

How many players are involved?
How confident can you be that they really in fact make up their characters thoroughly, and won't take up the whole first session finishing them?
What is the age range of the players?
Gender composition?
Any sibling or other family relationships among them? Any romantic relationships among them?
What is your typical role among them when you're not the GM? I don't mean what variety of characters you play, but rather what typical role any of your characters plays, relative to the others. (leader, helper, bad-guy-in-group, reluctant loner, etc)

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

The problem I have is this; I have the great foe, the tactics, but no means of victory. Basically they are an army of death worshipers that were defeated long ago by being entombed alive in their pyramid. They used their Torpor ability to hibernate and were accidentally let loose by the archeologist. Now they might go unstopped if someone can't figure out how to destroy them all/imprison them again. Any ideas?

You're looking for the secret artifact that, if they manage to recover it, will defeat the ancient evil?

Screw it.  Don't give them one.

If they can defeat the big bad, great.
If they say screw it lets grab some treasure and bail, great
If they all die horribly, great.

So the army might go unstopped?  Great...sounds like a great plot hook for the next time you get to be interrim GM...

"...Remember those undead dudes you failed to stop?   ...Yeah, we'll they're pretty much running the show now and hunting down the last living people in that part of the world...Oh...BTW...That's YOU."

[jc_madden]

Thanks for the response Ron.  Here goes!

Yes, I'll post the results in a couple of weeks.

They're not actually "all combat no role-play"; it's rather a bit of both actually.  I don't want to completely lead them by the most but rather grab them in an interesting manner and hook them.  But they are very knowledgeable in the rules so I want something that challenges them.  I foresee little posturing as the character creation rules have been passed out and tasked and we will discuss it all over the course of the next 5 days via our yahoo group.  By that time everyone will know everyone else's role/capabilities.

Although I agree 12th level is a lot of power I've taken steps to make it all fun and challenging.  One of the players is a power gamer so I've got some surprises for him.  I'm not an "out to get you" GM but I am a "if you do it this way, so do my villains."  Honestly if they can operate as a team they'll be fine, but I have the advantage of running an entire army of telepathic lawful evil villains with classes.  They're in for a battle of a lifetime.  The villains will use their home field advantage to bottle neck, cut off, divide and conquer, elude, confuse, subdue, and whittle down the infidels!

Yes, I did mean player victory thanks for clarifying; this is all in my head so if it pours out in an unpolished form I apologize.  The sum of my writing thus far is a stat block for the "Setites" (as they're called).  If the players try to take on these foes head on with little or no strategy/planning it's going to be a short adventure.  If they take their time and plan it's still going to be a gauntlet.  I want there to be some sort of "kill-switch" something that ends the scenario in a climactic and final way because of the nature of my "interim GM" status.  If I do this well MAYBE I can convince them to let me GM more at this point I'm unproven in their eyes and getting them to even let me do this much has been like pulling teeth.

Personally I hope that they do give pause to consider the enemy's origins and rational, if not for the sake of understanding their enemy and its motivations/tactics.  That might not happen but the background/plot WILL be there if they look for it.

Answers to your questions:
How many players are involved?    4
How confident can you be that they really in fact make up their characters thoroughly, and won't take up the whole first session finishing them? Very
What is the age range of the players? 23-41
Gender composition? Male
Any sibling or other family relationships among them? Any romantic relationships among them? No
What is your typical role among them when you're not the GM? I don't mean what variety of characters you play, but rather what typical role any of your characters plays, relative to the others. (leader, helper, bad-guy-in-group, reluctant loner, etc) Last character was a "helper" an LG dwarven cleric who was always angry that they were unorganized and never planed for anything and were always running away from the healer when they were hurt.  He died and opted to not be resurrected.  The character I'm currently playing falls under "reluctant loner" an elven ranger with a temper and a conceived notion of being very lucky.  He's never been really hurt or almost dead (not until recently) and he's very reckless.  Lately he's realized a bit of his own mortality and calmed down considerably.  I'm currently working on making a livejournal for his in game journal.  I'll post a link when it's ready.  (This GM project is taking up most of my time right now)

A side note on my new character:  I created a CN character partly to fit in with the previous mindset of the part (that of chaotic) and so his alignment would mesh well with the others (at the time two evils and one very chaotic).  Secondly to show them just how annoying that type of behavior can be (and boy I've had fun with it:  "I'm bored!  I go off and kill something by myself leaving you all to wonder about me for days!")  Sadly I don't think anyone sees the lesson here, and actually one of the players has yelled at ME for the behavior and I've said, don't blame ME it's my character.  My last character was completely OPOSSITE of this.

[Grover]

I gotta say, the challenges you describe don't sound impossible to me.  A lot depends on just how many of them there are, and what level the opposition is.  What's the highest level of the opposition spellcasters?  How mobile is the queen?  How many classed individuals do they have who are 9th level or above?  Do the players know the adventure will involve the undead?  What rulebooks do you allow beyond the core set?  What is the saving throw needed to resist the Queens mind-control?  (too high, and there's no point in running the game - they'll just walk in, maybe kill some guys, and get brain-fried)
Things to keep in mind:
At 12th level, they've got tremendous recuperative powers - Buying wands of cure light wounds for after-fight healing is cheap.  If you hit them, and don't kill them, they can be back up to nearly full strength on the next day.
They can also run away to fight another day very well, since they've got access to teleportation if they want it.
A small group of 5th level characters going up against a group of 12th level characters will not be practicing hit-and-run tactics - they will be practicing hit-and-splat tactics.  In order for 5th level characters to present a threat, they need to have a huge advantage of numbers.
A 12th level group will also be hard to ambush while they're sleeping.  At 12th level, in a hostile environment, I'd expect them to be sleeping in Rope Tricks, or something even more secure.
Also, since this is planned as a one-shot adventure, they can make more extensive use of limited-use items, which will increase their effectiveness a bit.

I think the question is, what do you want to do?  I get the impression that these guys are usually fairly disorganized, and you find that frusterating.  So,  do you just want to run a fun adventure, or do you want to teach them the folly of their chaotic ways?  I think it's very hard to demonstrate that organization is effective by giving them organized enemies, because organization can look like GM-fiat.  What I'd do is give them 2 groups of enemies to fight - one very disorganized, but with high challenge ratings, and one very organized, but with significantly lower challenge ratings - this might give your players a chance to see the contrast.  Maybe make the lizard guys the weaklings, and have them fighting nasty and tough critters which inhabit the area the tomb is in.  Still, it's an uphill fight - the GM in D&D has so much power that most evidence can be dismissed as 'you just made it that way to prove your point'.

Anyway, thanks for the chance to let out my inner gamist :)  I hope your game goes well, however you decide to run it :)
Steve

[Callan S.]

Quick question:

If the players try to take on these foes head on with little or no strategy/planning it's going to be a short adventure.

Will you enforce that though. It sounds like your anxious to be accepted as a GM, so you might fudge or cut back so the adventure doesn't end like in an hour or such.

It might be cool to just say that if somehow things end in an hour, that's how it is. So they should see if they can survive the whole night (throw them the challenge rather than fudge survival).

Sadly I don't think anyone sees the lesson here, and actually one of the players has yelled at ME for the behavior and I've said, don't blame ME it's my character.

It's pretty common that if another player collects more treasure than you, next time you play you try and beat them at this. However, that's when they are beating you. So if someone pisses you off in game, it's a regular mistake to try and deal with that in game too. But it's time to make a gentlemans agreement with the other players about not doing this anymore, outside of play. The game is for playing, not for pissing off others until they learn that they have been pissing you off...everyones spoiling the game that way. Scuse my preaching, but if you've arranged a gentlemans agreement by the time you post your next play account, it'll be good.

[jc_madden]

All good points much of what you described is true and I've already considered it. The outer buildings of the Necropolis are populated by mainly squads of 7 5th level fighters/monks w/ a level 10 anti-paladin sergeant called a Hem-ka.  These are the "chumps"  they have hive mind so they are rarely flanked or surprised, the leader provides them with resistance to fear and also has healing.  Once inside the main pyramid complex things get VERY tough because it is warded against teleportation, scrying, and extrademintional space.  Most of the monsters inside the complex have prestige classes.  

This isn't an excuse to show them the value of being organized.  It's just a 2 session dungeon crawl.  I just wanted to make it challenging and playing organized foes is the best way I can do it.  You're right about the power level of level 12 characters I just don't see them realizing much of that potential but I am trying to plan for it anyway.  I want to be surprised if they do well, so I'm intentionally trying to make it difficult.  I'm not underestimating them by any means though.

The power of the queen and king will be equal to a challenging encounter per the DMG rules so basically an EL of 13 or 14.  The King is a Tomb Guardian which means he can sense the position of any intruder in his tomb he uses this knowledge to block of key portions of the tomb via moving stone blocks.  He then sends attackers to their positions, they will probably not have much time to stop and rest ever.  If they try to walk through walls the incorporeal undead spirits of the slaves who died making the pyramid will attack them.

I know I don't have every angle covered but you never can.  If I've over looked something please let me know.

[jc_madden]

FYI - We played our regular game on saturday instead of mine because the player that was leaving didn't have to leave untill midnight so we pushed our start time to 11AM and gamed till 6PM then I left to go see a play.  The module is pretty much finished but we decided not to play on christmas so I will just have to put this scenario on the backburner.  Feel free to lock or delete this thread.