Donjon Krawl

[Zak Arntson]

Combat and Damage
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So - my suggested change is that you can actually spend Hit Dice.
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Damage is first applied against Hit Dice, always. When Hit Dice reach zero, damage is applied to an ability score (probably chosen randomly).
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(Again, please comment. Is good? I'm flying by the seat of my pants here.)

I love the spending Hit Dice (1 Hit Die = 1 die to roll, or possibly even 1 auto success).

I don't like the Damage first applied against Hit Dice. I really enjoyed the choice to injure my opponent. I don't want to see the currency change from 1 Damage Success = 1 Die of Damage to 2 Damage Successes = 1 Die of Ability Damage.

Healing using these rules will no longer be an automatic thing.
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As a player, I enjoyed the automatic healing. I'd rather not have to make a roll to heal. I think the player should get the choice to heal 1 Hit Die or 1 Ability Score per scene. Period. Adheres to the KISS principle of game design. This means, if you stagger your combat and non-combat encounters, people will generally heal 2 points between encounters.

Again, I don't like the 2 successes = 1 die of something. Ruins the elegant currency.

I agree with not having encumbrance, but instead of subtraction to figure an Adroitness penalty, howabout you simply can't wear armor greater than your Virility? This would mean that you could get Plate Mail all you want, but it won't go past your Vir. And heck, no subtraction needed.

I also like the idea of 1 success = 1 magic item fact. Keeps the currency & "fact" mechanic. I think Donjon's fact mechanic is the coolest thing evAR. When we were playing, I said, "I want a um, ring or something that gives me a +1 to Dodge. No, it shouldn't be a ring. Howabout a brooch?"

Instead, it would've been rolling dice and then, "2 facts? +1, affects Dodge" and Clinton would've been on the spot to give me bracers or boots or a nosering or something.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I gots to disagree with you, Zak. There isn't a currency change - you're spending one of your successes to state a fact. That said, 2 damage successes for 1 die of ability damage is steep - I think I'll change it to Valamir's earlier suggestion of 1 damage die to state where it's going, and then the rest of the dice apply against that. So, if you did 3 dice of damage, you could spend one to designate Adroitness and then do 2 damage to it.

Hit Dice is just the default if you don't spend anything.

As for the healing - I'll think it over again. If it's automatic, it'll be Hit Dice first, then ability scores.

[Zak Arntson]

Ah. When you put it that way, 1 success = 1 fact = 1 die.  Then you get: 1 success = Ability fact, subsequent successes = dice of damage. I like it. Way to go, Valamir!

[Valamir]

Quick note only because I'm rushing out to my plane.  I REALLY hope I can get my old crew to play so I'll have some real stuff to report.

1) Love the Spending Hit Dice for Strain.

2) Not sure I like the Hit Dice first then Abilities.  I'll have to read it closer but it seems that you'd never do Ability hits against monsters since they're down and 0 Hit Dice.

3) Agree that 2 Successes per Ability damage breaks the currency flow, glad you liked my 1 Success = Fact for a Called Shot idea.

4) Not sure about Healing rolls rather than automatic.  Probably actually need to play this one out to see.  On the one hand automatic is quick easy and painless.  On the other hand a roll would tie healing into the standard mechanic and allow things like a Troll's "Regeneration" skill to seamlessly integrate into the normal Healing rules.  Have to ponder that one deeper than I have time to here.

5) Encombrance Idea.  Funny thing, what got me thinking along those lines is recognizing that Virulity wasn't all that important in DK...since a high Adr also helps boost damage.  My first idea was just with armor, then I thought, why not include other stuff too.  With a high enough value you can still carry tons of stuff but it means the wimpy little wizard can't carry as much as the big strong barbarian.
       I think I'd go with an Initiative penelty before an Adroitness penelty, though.  An Adoitness penelty would negate the armor bonus on Damage Resistance rolls making heavy armor useless for all but the very strong...which in "reality" it wasn't.  

More on Monday, see you all then.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

2) Not sure I like the Hit Dice first then Abilities.  I'll have to read it closer but it seems that you'd never do Ability hits against monsters since they're down and 0 Hit Dice.

Valamir -

Doubt you'll see this, but re-read this from my previous post:

Once you reach 0 Hit Dice, you must roll Wherewithal + any sort of "staying up" skill versus Difficult (6 dice) before any action in combat, or pass out. (After combat, you can continue to move on, as long as you attempt nothing strenuous.) This applies to creatures and characters alike, making the rules to pass out equal to both of them instead of being different.

Here's where ability damage really comes in.

[Zak Arntson]

Talking to Clinton on the phone right now, and I wanted to get this suggestion down in stone:

A character who puts on armor can only benefit from as many Armor points as they have Virility. Examples:

Zog (Vir 3) and Dainty (Vir 1) find Chain Mail (AC 2).

Zog can wear the Chain Mail no problem. He gets the full AC bonus. Dainty puts on the Chain Mail, but only gets an AC 1 bonus (because his Vir is 1, that's his AC max).

This makes me wonder if it would work fine for weapons, too. Zog can heft a massive Warhammer (Dam 3), but Dainty can only use it to cause 1 point of damage.

This would encourage Dainty to find all sorts of magic items (which are immune to these rules), and Zog will probably stick with brutal, mundane war mauls and stuff.

Just a thought. I know this doesn't affect Adroitness in any way, but we're not that Sim anyway :) In fact, if there was a good way to tie in To Hit & Damage into one roll, I'd probably be all over it.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Zak,

I like half of your post (I'm shocked we're posting and talking on the phone at the same time. Crazy.)

I still like the idea of armor above your Vir limits your Adr. (Vir 2 wearing Scale Mail 3 means Adroitness is penalized by 1.) The idea of just an initiative penalty was raised above, and I like that, but also like the idea that heavy-ass armor keeps you from dodging, swimming, running, and the like.

I think your idea about weapons is awesome, though - you can't use a weapon with a damage rating higher than your Virility. We could do one of two things:

a) Cap the damage at your Virility. The problem here is that each point of Virility starts to equal two points. If you have a Vir of 2, you can use a 2 point weapon for 4 damage. If you have a Vir of 3, you can use a 3 point weapon for 6 damage.

b) Lower attacks and parries by the offending amount, much like above. If you have a Vir of 2 and try to wield a two-handed monster sword with a damage rating of 5, you would have a -3 penalty to attack or parry with it.

[Zak Arntson]

I feel like we're close to a unified-field theory of Donjon Krawl mechanic. There's something to this to hit vs. to damage and armor and weapon stuff. A single mechanic that will make sense.

Kind of like when we look at the character sheet and see: "Dodge (Adr + Skill)", "Damage (Vir + Skill + Weapon)" It just makes sense.

Hmm ... so, yeah, I dig the "No bonus higher than ABILITY" for things. But I also like the "Adroitness affected by heavy armor." I just can't reconcile the fact that Armor is the ONLY place in the ENTIRE game where we do this funky thing.

But then, why are we only counting encumberance for armor? Why not weapons? Or gear? I still like the Adroitness thing, but I'm not sure about how to factor it in.

Maybe Armor should have a Die Total. You get X dice (up to your Virility) for your Resist Damage. The left over points are your Adroitness penalty. I guess this is what you've been saying all along, Clinton ... I just like "dividing up points" rather than "subtracting." Subtraction is a dirty word Donjon, as far as I'm concerned.

Or, to word things more Donjon-like: Armor comes with a Value. Assign X dice (up to your Virility) to your Resist Damage (Whe + Skill + Armor). The amount of left-over dice is _an Ability Score loss_ to your Adroitness. So wearing heavy Armor is identical to taking damage to your Adroitness. Only you "heal" the lost Adroitness when you take off the armor.

Yay! I've put it into current Donjon rules-terms! Anyhow, what do you think of the "Heavy armor may cause Adroitness damage" tie-in to the current rules?

[Mike Holmes]

I like the Adr penalty for armor, as I've said before. Keep in mind that and Adr penalty will end up resulting in an Initiative penalty as Adr is part of the roll. I like you math Zak. Perhaps state it like this: Vir converts Armor points from Adr penalty to damage save.

Armor should then have a potential treasure stat, then. Call it Armor Bonus or something. So you can have a magic robe with three dice of protection instead of the normal one, but only requiring one Vir to negate any Adr penalties. Similarly, you could define the same item as elfin chain with three dice of protection but lightweight and, therefor only requiring one die of Vir to negate the Adr penalties.

Hmmm.. this is even better. I would then say that all stuff carried has a potential Adr penalty. The Adr penatly that has to be converted is equal to the dice in the object minus two. So two die leather has negligible weight, while four die has a potential of one die penalty. Same with a big sword. A 2 die shortsword has no penalty but a 3 die broadsword has a one penalty. Same with provisions, etc. Anyhow, Vir can be used to negate any of these penalties, but against their total. So a 3 Vir adventurer could use the chainmail, and broadsword and carry 3 dice of provisions for a total of 3 dice of penalty all negated by his 3 dice of Vir (Note: weapons and armor picked up but not in use should add to the equipment pool using the exponential method; a 3 pool plus a 3 sword = 4; a 3 pool plus a 5 sword = 5; the Adr penalty could be assessed this way for players who don't mind the slight added complexity)

You could even allow for the penalties to be less universal. For example, an overloaded character can choose the penalty that they want for the round. So a 3 Vir character with a total of 4 penalty points would have to decide where to apply the one that they are not able to negate. If that was caused by armor and weapon equally, he could choose to only have the penalty apply to attacks one round and defense the next (representing concentrating on either using the sword well, or staying mobile).

Just some more ideas.

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

My vote's in for only having armor apply to Adr penalties. Less bookwork for everyone.

And magic items (as far as I know ... Clinton?) don't provide the Adr penalties. All the more reason to get them. Otherwise, everyone's facts will go to lightweight things, and you won't often get Plate Mail +4 for the Paladin of Azathos.

We should be holding a Donjon session next weekend (would be this weekend, but it's Valentine's ... I'm taking a 5 day holiday). We're going to try some things out then. We'll probably toy with this whole Adr/Armor thing and see how it works out.

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Regarding Adr penalties:

I'm only going to have two things have "weight penalties" or Adr penalties: weapons and armor. This is good, because it makes a magic item that much more powerful balanced against regular items.

Armor works as stated above - all dice of armor above Vir works as Adr penalties. You still get use of the armor. So, if your Vir is 2 and you're wearing 4 dice of armor, that's still 4 dice of protection against damage. Your Adr goes down by 2, though.

With weapons, it works the same, but the penalty only applies to hit. If you have a giant-ass broadsword with 4 dice of damage, and a Vir of 2, you still get 4 dice of damage - but your chance to hit goes down by 2.

Of course, magic bonuses do not apply here. You can have leather armor (2 dice) with 3 more dice of magic protection, and you'll only need Vir 2.

The cool thing about this is that it sometimes makes sense to wear heavy armor or use a heavy weapon - you deal with penalties, but the protection or damage is worth it.

I'm so looking forward to running this again - it's getting better and better.

[Zak Arntson]

If you apply this to weapons & armor, though, it really affects weaker characters. My poor archaeologist (who could barely hold his own in combat) wouldn't have been able to weild his weapon very well.

It was high craftsmanship, not heavy weight, that made his weapons effective. With it affecting weapons & armor, the Rapier+Main Gauche (3) would've applied a 2-point penalty to hit and only a 1 point bonus to damage. I'd have been better off using a Rapier+Main Gauche (1). Or I would have started looking for a magical one.

Maybe this should be a Dial? High-magic settings should have weapons & armor count against Adr to encourage people looking for magic items?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

First - dude, you're misreading again. It would have applied a 2 die penalty to hit, and given 3 dice to damage, being a 3 die weapon.

That said - it affects weaker characters in that they can't use big stuff. That's totally fine - it's a trade-off you have to make. If I have a Vir of 1 and an Adroitness of 5, I'll just wear leather armor and carry a dagger. I'll have 5 dice minimum to dodge attacks, and have 5 dice + combat skill to hit, so I should have a lot of successes (which I can roll over into damage.)

If I'm the opposite way, with 5 dice in Vir and 1 in Adr, I'll only have 1 die to dodge (unless I have a skill), and 1 + weapon skill to hit. I'll want that plate mail and two-handed sword so that when I get hit, the armor will stop the damage, and when I actually do hit, it'll count.

Plus, if you're making a character like your archaelogist (who concentrated on magic), use your magic. That's the point.

[Zak Arntson]

So then "masterwork" items should be considered magic items, then. Or something. Because a Rapier/Main Gauche (3) is going to be no heavier than a (1).

And yeah, good point about the magic. At first level, I found that it was either a) super-effective or b) not effective or detrimental (which led to the awesome "you resurrected a skeleton, but it's now attacking its creator!")

I wonder if the magic system should be tuned up a little more (as in, more dice to roll or something). I'll have to play up the magic aspect next time, to further test it out.

[Mike Holmes]

Zak,
Yes, masterwork or magic it should all cost the same. Very Hero System, that.

As to the magic armor and weapons: that's a huge benefit making them entirely without weight penalty. I like Zak's old Fungeon rules for building up from a base item. So that +4 plate should encumber just like regular plate. As to everyone finding light items, well an item can be both. So, a particular player might create +4 plate, +2 light. Takes a lot of successes to get it, but it's available. See where I'm going now? It's really the same thing. In the end you have a protection and an encumberance. The advantage is the disparity between the two.

Mike