[Danse Macabre] PDF for feedback

[Peregrine]

Hi,

It's been a while since I've posted much hereabouts. Anyway, I have finally put together a text only (i.e. no illustrations) complete pdf version of the medieval horror and intrigue game Danse Macabre that I've been working on with Dean Sutter for some months now.

I thought I'd see if I could get a little first glance feedback...

The download site is here: http://mythogames.150m.com/folder_01/dm_002.htm

Let me know how you find the game. Any and all comments welcome. Do the rules look logical and simple enough? Is the setting well described and full of enough hooks? Does the game feel more or less complete? The usual.

Thanks ahead of time for any comments...

Chris

[lyebaptism]

If this comes off harsh it is just because I don't want to see anyone waste their time putting out work that isn't as good as it could be.

Character sheet:
Skills: the 4th box on the first row and the 3rd box in the second row are showing up oddly for me.


2nd page
You don't need to repeat the name of your system on every page.
Sorcerous Things sounds stupid.

Bottom of third page:
You might want to put a dividing line between Family History and the Enemies and Allies sections.

Illustrated version of Chapter One:
I hate the boarder design.

Section by the Unknown Scholar:
Does he hate his books?  If not why say Book-Infested?

Last paragraph:  "How long will I have?"  Why not say "How long do I have?"  

Introduction: Why are you telling someone buying a small print RPG what an RPG is for?  This text is better suited for the back of a book if you plan on printing this.

"...to tell yourself a few tales..." could be "...to tell yourself tales..."  Few would imply you don't expect the player to do much of this.

In the second warning about drinking hemlock, just say, "Consumption will kill you."

The overview feels like a rehashing of the Introduction

I like the descriptions of different game play styles.


Got tired of reading it.  The story told by the scholar is rather dry.  Doesn't draw me in as of the character creation section.  I'll comment on what you want if I read more.

[Blake Hutchins]

I, on the other hand, thought it was brilliant.  I started without much more than cursory interest, but this has a definite vision that differs from both Ars Magica and Vampire Dark Ages, the other two medieval setting-heavy games I'm familiar with.

There are typos to fix, of course, and character generation desperately needs a summary or flowchart.  It seemed to go on and on.  There's a lot to cover.  I presume you'll have a clear and comprehensive example of chargen so we can see it through from the Alpha to the Omega.  I skipped the fiction sections - not that interested in game fiction for the most part - if I want fiction, I go elsewhere than game books to look for it.

I haven't finished the manuscript yet, but  -- and perhaps you've already covered this later, and I just haven't encountered it -- I'd like to see how you envision a group coming together to play this.  What kinds of characters, what kinds of interactions between those who have different soul tempers, etc.

I'll post more feedback when I've finished the read.

Best,

Blake

[Jason E Leigh]

Chris:

I'm mostly with Blake on this - I can see where you're going - and it looks cool.  I'm just a little concerned with some of the detours you take to get there.  A lot of this boils down to style preferences, I suspect.

I noticed a lot of tortured language, typos and grammar mistakes - and none of these are my forte.  I'd reccommend - before you publically release the game - that you have a friendly editor type take a good hack at it.

The best editors help you, the author, do the best job of saying what you want to say, how you want to say it, as effectively as possible.

I too thought that chargen went on and on forever - and could use a trimming down and a flowchart as already suggested.  Also - and I haven't finished reading yet - you could use a short chapter on resolution and rules before chargen - which ought to make it easier for folks (IMO) to make up the character they desire.

There were a couple of passages that bordered on preachy - especially when you talk about why you made the decision not to use detailed weapon stats.

Finally, a fully fleshed out sample of play - running several pages at least - that highlights 80% of the system (especially the virtue/vice mechanics, which seem central to the game) needs to be put in there as well.

Looks like you've got the hard part finished - it just needs a lot of aggressive editing and playtesting.

Cheers.

[Blake Hutchins]

I'll second Jason's request for an extended example of play to showcase most of the rules.

Best,

Blake

[Peregrine]

Thanks for the feedback.

If this comes off harsh it is just because I don't want to see anyone waste their time putting out work that isn't as good as it could be.

I wouldn't be posting it if I didn't want serious critique. Be as harsh as you feel is needed.

Skills: the 4th box on the first row and the 3rd box in the second row are showing up oddly for me.

I'll have a look at that. I've printed the sheets, and haven't seen anything odd, so it could be an on-screen artifact?

You don't need to repeat the name of your system on every page.
Sorcerous Things sounds stupid.

On the characters sheet? Fair enough. I could change Sorcerous Things to something simpler. Sorcery? Occult?

Bottom of third page:
You might want to put a dividing line between Family History and the Enemies and Allies sections.

Good idea.

Illustrated version of Chapter One:
I hate the boarder design.

Other people have told me they quite liked it. I'm not thrilled with it, but it more or less fits the mood and isn't too distracting. What didn't you like about it? I can have a go at creating something else. I was also considering just going with a very simple black line.

Section by the Unknown Scholar:
Does he hate his books? If not why say Book-Infested?

He (or rather I) was being tongue-in-cheek, in the way that a cat lover might say her house is cat-infested. She doesn't actually mean the house is infested with vermin. I was trying to overstate things for the sake of humour, and I suppose as a form of subtle hyperbole. Anyway, I'm guessing that wasn't obvious in the text.

Introduction: Why are you telling someone buying a small print RPG what an RPG is for? This text is better suited for the back of a book if you plan on printing this.

This is one of those running jokes, isn't it? Why do small press games always try to explain to you *again* what roleplaying is.

Anyway, my experience is that the 'what is roleplaying' section is always different. I've sort of come to the conclusion that a 'what is roleplaying' section acutally gives you insight into what the author thinks rolelaying is - and the opportunity to decide whether the author's attitude is likely to suit you're own.

If the section talks mostly about adventuring and fighting dragons, you know what you're in for. If it talks a lot about living out a romantic and tragic story then you've a fair idea what the game will turn into.

Also, if this is posted as a free pdf (publication is unlikely) people unfamilair to roleplaying may download it. It remains a useful thing to add in there.

"...to tell yourself a few tales..." could be "...to tell yourself tales..." Few would imply you don't expect the player to do much of this.

Good point. That's partly me being poetic again, this time in an understated way, and also unconciously demonstrating lack of confidence in terms of whether anyone would want to play more than a few sessions.

The overview feels like a rehashing of the Introduction

I'll look at that. It could easily have gotten repetitive. Knowing when to stop with an introduction is a useful thing.

Got tired of reading it. The story told by the scholar is rather dry. Doesn't draw me in as of the character creation section. I'll comment on what you want if I read more.

Yikes. That falls nicely into the bad things category. Is it your sort of game, though? I'll be less concerned if you've never felt much inclination towards dark fantasy or horror like CoC or medieval games like Ars Magica.

If, on the other hand, that's exactly your cup of tea, I'm worried that you found it tiring just reading the game.

There are typos to fix, of course, and character generation desperately needs a summary or flowchart. It seemed to go on and on. There's a lot to cover. I presume you'll have a clear and comprehensive example of chargen so we can see it through from the Alpha to the Omega. I skipped the fiction sections - not that interested in game fiction for the most part - if I want fiction, I go elsewhere than game books to look for it.

Thanks for the feedback. A very soild edit is still in order, then.

I'm convinced that game fic is included in games for the authors rather than the readers. I'm half inclined to get rid of it, although of course I also think there's valuable theme and mood information in there for those who feel inclined.

I have had people read the fic and comment that they liked it, but, then again, I've read people's comments online stating that they loved (frankly awful) fanfic available at site XYZ. Go figure. You'd have to like the style, I suspect, which is dry and slightly academic. The idea was to contrast a serious and studious mind against horrific and inexplicable things. It may or may not have actually come off.

A character creation overview is something I hadn't thought about in great detail, to be honest. It sounds as if Chargen may be more complicated than I thought.

I was planning to add in a running example of chargen at the different stages, but hadn't got around to it yet. I'm guessing that the examples are going to be a 'must have'? That is, the chargen section needs a better explaination?

I haven't finished the manuscript yet, but -- and perhaps you've already covered this later, and I just haven't encountered it -- I'd like to see how you envision a group coming together to play this. What kinds of characters, what kinds of interactions between those who have different soul tempers, etc.

Oh. Important and completely missing. I'll possibly pass that to Dean, who has done the playtesting, and see if he'd like to write up a section.

I noticed a lot of tortured language, typos and grammar mistakes - and none of these are my forte. I'd reccommend - before you publically release the game - that you have a friendly editor type take a good hack at it.

Some of that will come down to style choices, in other places there will need to be some cleaning up of the text. Others have commented on typos and grammar errors, so an edit is definitely in order. I could go through myself and simplify the language in places, although I was actually trying for slightly purpled prose because it fits the theme of the game - convoluted and just slightly barroque.

It may be an experiment that hasn't worked too well.

I too thought that chargen went on and on forever - and could use a trimming down and a flowchart as already suggested. Also - and I haven't finished reading yet - you could use a short chapter on resolution and rules before chargen - which ought to make it easier for folks (IMO) to make up the character they desire.

Noted.

Is the chargen section longer than most other games on the market? I was aiming for something that was about on par with the average rpg on the shelves. I may have overshot.

One thing that has come up elsewhere is that with no explaination of mechanics and no feel for exactly how powerful say for example Rank 6 in a skill is players have little idea how to craft a character.

A one-page or less rules explaination in the introduction might be useful, I suspect.

There were a couple of passages that bordered on preachy - especially when you talk about why you made the decision not to use detailed weapon stats.

You might want to replace 'preechy' with 'desperate'. The system just doesn't support multiple classes of weapons at all well. The explaination is a rationale for an artifact of an otherwise smooth system. Other people haven't bought the passage, either, by the way. I think people read between the lines, realise that something isn't quite right, but aren't sure what. It's going to have to go. I'll replace it with something more low key. Did you find other designer comments OTT as well?

If anyone has an idea how to get around this in a mechanics sense I'd be keen to hear it. The problem, basically, is that damage and skill-tests are very chunky and a bonus of even +1 either to damage or to skill success skews the system too much.

One possibility is to add die to the die pool, but I'd like to avoid that if possible. Rolling six die is enough. Seven or eight is getting a bit of a handful (literally).

Finally, a fully fleshed out sample of play - running several pages at least - that highlights 80% of the system (especially the virtue/vice mechanics, which seem central to the game) needs to be put in there as well.

A while back I suggested to the playtest group that they record an actual game so that we could transcribe part of it into the book (and also search for subjective 'rules' that were being used at the table but which had just developed unconciously, and might bear mentioning in the pdf). I think they did actually do this but haven't sent me the tape. I'll have to ask.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.

Chris

[lyebaptism]

I'll have a look at that. I've printed the sheets, and haven't seen anything odd, so it could be an on-screen artifact?

Very possible.  I'll check it when I get back to my normal computer.

On the characters sheet? Fair enough. I could change Sorcerous Things to something simpler. Sorcery? Occult?

I like either of your two options.

Other people have told me they quite liked it. I'm not thrilled with it, but it more or less fits the mood and isn't too distracting. What didn't you like about it? I can have a go at creating something else. I was also considering just going with a very simple black line.

It looks rather pixilated which doesn't fit a dark fantasy genre book.  Very distracting.

This is one of those running jokes, isn't it? Why do small press games always try to explain to you *again* what roleplaying is.

Anyway, my experience is that the 'what is roleplaying' section is always different. I've sort of come to the conclusion that a 'what is roleplaying' section acutally gives you insight into what the author thinks rolelaying is - and the opportunity to decide whether the author's attitude is likely to suit you're own.

If the section talks mostly about adventuring and fighting dragons, you know what you're in for. If it talks a lot about living out a romantic and tragic story then you've a fair idea what the game will turn into.

Also, if this is posted as a free pdf (publication is unlikely) people unfamilair to roleplaying may download it. It remains a useful thing to add in there.

Fair enough.

Yikes. That falls nicely into the bad things category. Is it your sort of game, though? I'll be less concerned if you've never felt much inclination towards dark fantasy or horror like CoC or medieval games like Ars Magica.

If, on the other hand, that's exactly your cup of tea, I'm worried that you found it tiring just reading the game.

The genre is definatly my style though I didn't get much of a sense that it was at all similar to Call of Cthulhu.  The game I'm working on is horror-fantasy 1984 with vampires.

It wasn't that I hated your game, just wasn't drawn in by the flavor I saw prior to character creation.  The story bits mentioned a lot of cool things, but never went farther.  Maybe if you told more about that large black thing that chased the scholar, or some more of the dangers they faced I would have cared more.  Having someone tell you "Something cool happend" is a lot less interesting than telling the actual story.

I also had been up for nearly 40 hours when I read it the first time so not much could have kept my attention for long.  I'll read the setting elements later.  Rules are second to the setting for me.  I'll buy your book only if the world is cool.

[Peregrine]

I've looked more closely at the border on my printed version. You're right, it is pixillated. I just hadn't looked at it closely enough.

If we publish (still a big if) I'll pay a freelancer to produce something more professional. Ditto for the illustrations which are just my own amateur work. I just don't have the art skills to produce anything seriously professional.

Interesting point about the fiction. I tried to make his story more mysterious than horrifying to begin with and then as the scholar's story unfolds in later chapters you see more and more of what is really going on. Its a fine line isn't it? If you get to close to something it loses its mystery. But, if you don't provide enough detail an element in a story feels vague and distant.

I haven't had anyone seriously comment on the setting elements yet, so I'm definitely curious to hear what you think. I have put a fair amount of effort into making sure the setting and system make sense together - if a spell, power or demonic thingy appears in the setting it is there in the mechanics as well.

But, what I'm not sure about is that the setting will actually read well and feel engaging.

Chris

EDIT:

The genre is definatly my style though I didn't get much of a sense that it was at all similar to Call of Cthulhu. The game I'm working on is horror-fantasy 1984 with vampires.

I should comment. The aim of the mechanics and theme of the game are quite similar. All the 'monsters' in the setting are supernatural and geared to be far beyond the ability of humans to fight toe-to-toe. You suffer from trauma and insanity by just looking at supernatual stuff, including magic. Sorcerers take trauma when they work magic. The wrongness of anything supernatural messes with mortal's heads.

The best way to describe it is something similar in theme to CoC but using traditional faeries and demons instead of cosmic horrors, and with occult sorcery, cults and intrigue thrown in.

[Lance D. Allen]

Just a quick note on the art in the formatted chapter, as most of the observations from my brief read-through have been mentioned by others already.

Firstly, the art is actually pretty good, definitely good enough for a professional game book, and nicely evocative of the dark medieval setting you're putting forth. Don't be too harsh on yourself. The only problems I see with the visual art is that it is, as lyebaptism mentioned, rather pixelated, and the border is too heavy and dark when placed next to the pencils and the text.

Maybe lighten the border a bit and scan the art with a higher resolution for the final product, and I think you'll have a nice looking book.

[Blake Hutchins]

I'll add that though I am not a fan of game fiction (as mentioned), I may troll through it for mood and ideas after I've become familiar with the rules.

I'd like to see more discussion of possible gameplay structure, thoughts on story tropes, etc.  Your "Call of Cthulhu but with the fae" is a start.

Best,

Blake

[Kesher]

Howdy.

I've mostly medium-skimmed through the rules, but here are a few comments:


The beginning of the book, as has been mentioned, is a bit tortured, prose-wise.  I thought it got better later in the book;  'purpled' prose is very hard to write well, unless you're someone like Lovecraft or Vance.  You're trying for stylistic effect as opposed to just overheated descriptive writing, right? :)  Actually, the fiction seemed to work the same way; it didn't do anything for me at first, but as I looked at the later segments, it caught my interest.  Your attention to 'colorful' details is a strong point (the Slavic bandits with blue and gold shawls, chickens running around the floor of the inn, etc.)

Even just skimming, I've seen many, many typos, both punctuation and misspelled words.

Your types of magic seem well-defined and purposeful (in the context of the setting), something that seems usually lacking in fantasy games with multiple magics.

I like how the 'Spiritual Attributes' are directly connected to play and to the setting itself.  I'm a big fan of characters and setting functioning, in a way, as metaphorical reflections of each other.  

I need to read the conflict mechanics more closely, but I did read the section on armor (another pet peeve of mine in fantasy systems), and I thought your take was unique and even tactically interesting; it accomplished your stated purpose (of having a heavily armored opponent be very hard to damage.)

I also liked the 'levels of play' discussion; it recognizes a flexibility inherent in the setting as well as the 'dark fantasy' genre as a whole, not to mention the playing style of different groups.  I'd suggest pushing the open discussion of play style even more.

I'd suggest reworking the 'What is Roleplaying?' section.  Some of your statements, especiallly about the gm/player divide, as well as the the purpose of rules in general, may be true for your vision of this particular game, but are certainly not immutable truths.  I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it read to me.

I'll read the setting in more detail as well.  The mention of the setting in the intro confused me; it seemed sometimes like an alternate Earth and sometimes wholly imaginary.  I'm grooving on the monsters, however.  Again, your attention to detail takes what could easily be generic creatures and gives them personality (the gargouille having dog bones as one of the components of its make-up is a good example.)

BTW, the copy I downloaded ends at p. 207, with the scenario seeming to carry on to the next page.  What the hell happens to the Ashen Man?? :)

[Peregrine]

Hi,

Maybe lighten the border a bit and scan the art with a higher resolution for the final product, and I think you'll have a nice looking book.

Thanks, much appreciated. I've been playing around with black and white line sketches but without really capturing a dark mood. As I produce more pencil sketches there will be more to choose from, so the overall quality should be better.

I'm tempted to just use a very plain square border now and step away from the tendancy in rpgs to overdecorate the page.

Even just skimming, I've seen many, many typos, both punctuation and misspelled words.

It still needs a serious edit. I've realised how much I rely on those little red underlines in Word only when they vanished (This files has exceded the number of spelling and grammar errors... etc)

I like how the 'Spiritual Attributes' are directly connected to play and to the setting itself. I'm a big fan of characters and setting functioning, in a way, as metaphorical reflections of each other.

I hadn't thought of it in exactly those terms, but now that you mention it the world of Danse Macabre is a battleground between heaven, hell and faerie and so is the human soul. Huh. That actually links in very nicely.

I need to read the conflict mechanics more closely, but I did read the section on armor (another pet peeve of mine in fantasy systems), and I thought your take was unique and even tactically interesting; it accomplished your stated purpose (of having a heavily armored opponent be very hard to damage.)

Thanks. The aim was to try and keep things reletively simple. I'm told by the playtest group that when they tried breaking the combat rules with a very combat-intense game it emerged more or less okay.

I'd suggest reworking the 'What is Roleplaying?' section. Some of your statements, especiallly about the gm/player divide, as well as the the purpose of rules in general, may be true for your vision of this particular game, but are certainly not immutable truths. I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it read to me.

On balance, I'm going to scupper the whole WHat is Roleplaying section for something much simpler. See below...

The mention of the setting in the intro confused me; it seemed sometimes like an alternate Earth and sometimes wholly imaginary. I'm grooving on the monsters, however. Again, your attention to detail takes what could easily be generic creatures and gives them personality (the gargouille having dog bones as one of the components of its make-up is a good example.)

The setting is a mixture of fact and fiction. Parts of it are real and parts completely invented. Honorious was a real Pope, his edict was not. The countries detailed are all real, the information about the crusades is mostly accurate, but a lot of the rest of it really spins out into fiction. The whole Byzantine section is fictitious, as are other chuncks of info.

That should probably be clearer in the m/s, I think.

I'm pleased that you like the monsters. It was something that had to be done right to make the horror thing work. They have to feel both familiar and strange. What I tried to do was take monsters that have been seen before and try to remind the reader that they are slightly weird, spooky or unnatural.

My personal favourite is the vampire whose body consists of vermin crawling around inside his skin. You don't see the insects and rats until you cut the head off. It's from an actual tale about Polish vampires. Very weird.

I'd like to see more discussion of possible gameplay structure, thoughts on story tropes, etc. Your "Call of Cthulhu but with the fae" is a start.

This started me thinking. As did this...

The beginning of the book, as has been mentioned, is a bit tortured, prose-wise. I thought it got better later in the book; 'purpled' prose is very hard to write well, unless you're someone like Lovecraft or Vance. You're trying for stylistic effect as opposed to just overheated descriptive writing, right? :)

That in mind, plus some of the other earlier comments I've started on a new version of the introduction. I tried to make it plainer and more concise, as well as give a better feel for what the game is actually about.

Its just a start, but if you feel I'm missing something vital here that needs to go in early on, then let me know.

I was going to start with a much shorter piece of more immediate flavour text (I prefer to think of game fiction as bloated flavour text ala CCGs - snippets that add something to the setting in the mind of the reader) and then launch into the following.

NEW INTRO

What is Danse Macabre?
Danse Macabre is a Roleplaying Game (RPG) set in an alternative Medieval Europe rife with demons, inhuman faerie folks and warlockry. It is a world in which the fabric of European folklore and fairytale is rewoven with darker, more solemn threads.
The things that were once feared by every family in a lonely crofter's cottage are here to be faced again. The wilds are endless and full of cunning wolves, hellish witches, child-stealing faeries and old half-forgotten heathen gods. Danse Macabre takes a second glance at these things that we have forgotten to take seriously, the weird creatures of folklore and the nameless fears that haunt old forests and dark paths, and reworks them upon an older, more superstitious anvil.

The Game
Danse Macabre is a paper and pencil RPG. The game is played around a table by a group of people. One of the players sets out the basic elements of a story; the others take on the roles of characters in the story. Like all RPGs Danse Macabre uses rules to help guide the story, but because the game is ongoing, there are no clear ways to win or lose a game.

The Nature of the Game
Danse Macabre is a game of fantasy, it has sorcery, monsters and swords like any other number of fantasy settings. But what sets any game apart is theme. What is the mood of the game? What sort of tales can you tell using the game? What sort of characters can you play? What will the characters do?
Danse Macabre is a game in which you play a fragile mortal character in a world where hell's shadows and fae creatures are very real perils. All supernatural things in Danse Macabre are mortal dangers, sorcery corrupts the sorcerer, even the weakest of werewolves will slaughter the most skilful of mortal knights.
The rules of Danse Macabre are built around this central theme: powerful, dark things lurk just out of human sight and they all want to eat you, or buy you soul, or make you into an eternal slave.
Because of the dark theme of the game the rules in Danse Macabre are not balanced. Some new characters will have done well in life, others will not. Character advancement is limited – what power there is to be had comes at a price.
So what sort of a game does this make? Danse Macabre will vary depending on how you deal with the supernatural elements that lie behind the fabric of everyday Medieval life. Games that have very few supernatural elements may delve into intrigue, mystery or gothic romance. If you want to bring the supernatural elements into the bloody light of the torch, then the game becomes one of suspense and horror. If you introduce a lot of supernatural elements into the open then the game will become bloody and short-lived – as will the characters.

Designer Notes
The aim, in creating Danse Macabre, was to present a flexible system for playing in the world of the dark fantastic. Because the game varies in scope from intricate court intrigue to visceral horror, psychological and spiritual aspects of the character are important. Characters risk their sanity and their souls in Danse Macabre. Neither should be taken lightly.
When designing rules simplicity and speed of resolution has been chosen over realism. This choice was made to prevent tense situations in the game becoming bogged down in rule resolution. The main goals of the game design were...

A solid Medieval atmosphere. The elements of the setting should appear to be authentic even if they are invented.

Rules that encourage a sense of danger and fear about supernatural elements in the game.

Strong emphasis on the social aspects of playing a game in Medieval Europe. Social status plays an important part in a feudal society that Danse Macabre in set in. Tax collectors and corrupt barons are just as dangerous as demons.

A number of distinct branches of magic that possess definite places in the society that uses them. A sliding scale of power and danger has also been linked to magic. More powerful sorcery carries greater risks.

Rules for the phycology of horror that support various styles of play and help govern sins and virtues, insanity, trauma, and the selling of souls.

There is, however, little effort to create a balanced setting. Unbalanced rules favour the supernatural over physical strength or skill, and unfair social rules favour of the wealthy, powerful and noble.

---

I'll expand upon it and keep the better parts from the original introduction.

I'll add a (very) short rules over-view. I'll retain the section on the different styles of play (possibly enlarged), as well as the setting in brief, (possiblyin a slightly altered final form).

Any comments?

Chris

[Wyrdwyre]

I've read your PDF and I must say i'm impresed. It has very good structure and layout. The only thing I see that could be "tweaked" is the points scale for learning skills. Certain skills may be more useful than others in the same selection (i.e all craft skills cost the same at the same rank). If the system is more geared towards role-playing than roll-playing, which it looks like it is you may not have a problem with the skill system. Also, please under no circumstances take this next comment as a slam or insult, but why is it that your game mechanics look very familier to White Wolf's World of Darkness? Were you inspired by that game system?


Just my 2 cents

[Bill Masek]

Peregrine,

I think your game has a lot of potential.  I have always been a fan of games which slowly grind the characters mind/souls into dust throughout play and I feel that your Nature and Fear rules (along with the corresponding corruptions and deliriums) do this beautiful.

I like that motivation is the first thing you decide on your character sheet.  However, I didn't see any rules concerning it in the rules.  Without some kind of mechanical benefit there is no reason to follow ones motivation.  (For a good example of a motivation stat done well, check out the kicker stat in Sorcerer by Dr. Ron Edwards.)

I also like that you have backgrounds.  They pull players closer to their characters and make it all the more painful as they are stripped of their humanity.  However, as it stands now, some motivations are clearly dominant over others.  At this point there is absolutely no reason for someone to choose a background like Terrors.  (You mention that backgrounds are not about power.  However, like it or not, if there is a vast power difference, they will be.)  I can think of two ways to solve this problem.  (I'd recommend only one of these two.)
      1.  You don't need negative backgrounds.  Bad stuff will happen to these characters as play progresses and its no fun to watch a wretched person get even more retched.  Simply remove the negative backgrounds and power balance the others.  Problem solved.
      2.  You don't need the statistical element in backgrounds.  Let backgrounds function only to create interesting encounters/conflicts.  (Example:  a character is 'afraid' of something.  More times then not, in horror, it's the person who is supposedly most afraid who manages to face the horror.  And, yes, someone who has adventured is more likely to have certain skills, but let him buy those, don't give it to them free.)

Your game has a fairly simple basic conflict resolution system.  The rules for Contests, opposed, unopposed and extended, work well.  But you then go and build separate conflict systems for melee conflicts, archery conflicts, pain, awareness, poison, awakening and probably a few I forgot.  Your rules system would be much stronger if it were more streamlined.  (Poison or dodging arrows could be treated as an unopposed conflict, with you rolling against difficulty.  Hard melee combat would be a struggle to break your opponents resolve, etc.)  If you were to take all of the little Contest charts and merge them into one big contest chart, without any penalties and replace the individual explanatory text with a few examples it would work nicely.  (And lets face it, when fictional characters fight a stab wound or two to the chest doesn't slow them down.  Its only when their resolve breaks or they actually die that any effective difference is made.)

As your game currently stands, there is no reason not to be a noble.  You will have more power.  You will have higher stats.  You can do more things.  You will, as a result, most likely get more play time.  I can not see any reason, as of now, to play anything but a noble.  One way to fix this would be to grant the other character upbringings extra effort points to spend as the game progresses to counter balance this.

Almost forgot.  I like your rules for effort, fortune and fate.  Good stuff.

I think you have the potential for an excellent game here.  Best of luck.

Best,
       Bill

[Peregrine]

Hi,

You, know, I've got to say that I am thoroughly impressed with the quality of feedback I'm getting here. I've wandered in and out of the Forge for a couple years, but there really does seem to be an astute crowd hovering about at the moment.

've read your PDF and I must say i'm impresed. It has very good structure and layout.

Thanks! Always nice to have some encouragement.

The only thing I see that could be "tweaked" is the points scale for learning skills. Certain skills may be more useful than others in the same selection (i.e all craft skills cost the same at the same rank).

We're aiming to keep the mechanics simple. Optionally speaking, we could suggest in a sidebar that players may want to adjust skill point costs, but its probably not a must have. An interesting point, though.

Also, please under no circumstances take this next comment as a slam or insult, but why is it that your game mechanics look very familier to White Wolf's World of Darkness? Were you inspired by that game system?

None taken. I've only ever played in one WW game (vampire 1st ed when it came out years and years ago), though I have read reviews and flicked through books in stores.

The similarities would be in the use of a dice pool, and a use of a target number (as opposed to say a take-the-highest dice pool method), as well as counting up successes.

I think we handle 'difficulty' differently though. WW handles difficulty by removing or adding dice, we've set target number of successes required. i.e. average needs one success. Difficult, two.

Also, we don't use an attribute + skill system, and, more importanly the weighting on success is different. WW games give you a, um, (someone should correct me if I am wrong), but one die confers a basic 7/10 chance of success? Danse gives you a 1/6 chance of success with one die. This changes the play of the game significantly. Danse is much less geared towards powerful characters.

But, like you pointed out, there are similarities. I wouldn't want to tread too close to WW, especially considering the subject matter, but, I think we're safely at arm's length system-wise.

I like that motivation is the first thing you decide on your character sheet. However, I didn't see any rules concerning it in the rules. Without some kind of mechanical benefit there is no reason to follow ones motivation. (For a good example of a motivation stat done well, check out the kicker stat in Sorcerer by Dr. Ron Edwards.)

We actually had a mechanic for this initially. It was similar to the motivations mechanic in Stone of Souls (also downloadable from the same site). But, we found that it didn't work. The players became too focused on personal goals. The focus needs to remain always on the monsters or mystery for the game to work as intrigue or horror. Ironically enough, although character is important, too much personal emphasis actually caused the theme of the game to fall apart. We (somewhat reluctantly) got rid of the motivations mechanics.

As a side effect, getting rid of the motivations mechanic also placed more emphasis on sin, virtue and caprice - which actually helped the mood of the game.  Which on balance is probably a good thing.

I also like that you have backgrounds. They pull players closer to their characters and make it all the more painful as they are stripped of their humanity. However, as it stands now, some motivations are clearly dominant over others. At this point there is absolutely no reason for someone to choose a background like Terrors. (You mention that backgrounds are not about power. However, like it or not, if there is a vast power difference, they will be.)

Interesting point. I'm not sure, though. The problem kind of has an internal fix - istrong mortals don't sruvive much better than weak mortals. I think the playtest GM has found that after one or two attempts at a powerful character players start to mess around with interesting concepts instead.

I'll run this by Dean, though. He has done all the playtesting, and is best equipped to mull this over. Dean's also more of the mechanics wizard. He's jut back from holidays (I gather - he's based in another country) so now that he is back online I'll direct him towards this thread, too.

Your game has a fairly simple basic conflict resolution system. The rules for Contests, opposed, unopposed and extended, work well. But you then go and build separate conflict systems for melee conflicts, archery conflicts, pain, awareness, poison, awakening and probably a few I forgot.

Now this got me thinking. We could simplify things a lot. I hadn't even considered it from that angle. We could extrapolate the Resolve mechanic in a simple umbrella 'force of nature' mechanic to cover poisons, waterfalls, enchantments, basically anything dangerous that isn't actively aggressive. That would simplify a whole gamut of issues.

Your rules system would be much stronger if it were more streamlined. (Poison or dodging arrows could be treated as an unopposed conflict, with you rolling against difficulty. Hard melee combat would be a struggle to break your opponents resolve, etc.

I like the idea of streamlining it all. Again, I'd have to run this by Dean. I might be able to suggest some way in which Health could be got rid of, and Resolve used to negotiate combat - I'll think that over.

As your game currently stands, there is no reason not to be a noble. You will have more power. You will have higher stats. You can do more things. You will, as a result, most likely get more play time. I can not see any reason, as of now, to play anything but a noble. One way to fix this would be to grant the other character upbringings extra effort points to spend as the game progresses to counter balance this.

I've thought this over. The big downside (not emphasised in the game) is social responcibility. You have serfs to look after, wars to fight, opponent's to murder and marraiges to arrange. Its all a bit of a headache, really. We could play that up a lot more. Make sure that the GM realises that noble characters will suffer from a lot of draining social expectations.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll get back to the topic of skinnying down the resolution mechanics.

Chris