[Dunjon] Getting serious?

[Larry L.]

So I ran my first game of Donjon today for the "Indie Minnesota" gang. The stated shared goal was to try to run a serious game, as opposed to the all-out sillyfests that most other posted games seem to have been.

I set the dial to "Rust & Blood" and came up with the Old Colony of New Canaan, a Warhammer FRP - cum - Solomon Kane community conveniently built on top of the accreted ruins of past peoples.

The Krawlers: (with main abilities, and supporting abilities)

-Raven, the Bard-Percussionist (Dodge Anything, Play Drums, Search Bodies, Cast Bardic Spells (Intimidate, Courage), Observe Humanoids)
-Sir Samuel, the Paladin (Smite Evil, Cast Holy Spells (Healing, Bless), Detect Evil, Block with Shield, Mounted Combat)
-Grule, the Warlock (Precognition, Poison Blades, Dark Magic (Dark, Blood), Command Dead, Be Creepy)
-Blacktree, the Exiled Barbarian (Combat Ecstacy, Maul with Axe, Shrug Off Damage, Savage Lore, Stealthy Movement)
-Gunter Granheim, the Cursed Swordsman (Weaponfighting, Feint with Sword, Roll with Blow, Interrogate Evil, Implore Spirits (Banish, Perceive))

Oh, thanks to Chris (Grule), we did in fact use d20's.

The Whiff Factor manifested itself as soon as initial shopping. The rulebook suggested setting town values based on flavor, so I set the town's resources a little on the spendy side. Somehow I overlooked that these values would be used to let the party have ANY starting equipment, so we ended up with some wackiness. (i.e. Paladin with no armor)

Murder, offer of loot, blah blah... Railroad to the adventure part... Into the ancient cemetery. Our party comes upon a rotten tree stump, which is (suprise!) infested by five giant centipedes. (with stats curiously similar to the Snake on p. 68) After working out the basic combat mechanics, the party made short work of the vermin. (Bleed!)

So I let the party loot as written. This got a little goofy, since the "corpses" to loot were, um, giant bugs. Sir Samuel, desperate for armor, successfully procured a shield. This would normally have been a "the GM says nuh-uh" moment, but it the interest of using the mechanics as written I let it slide. Between the centipedes and the Level 4 treasure cache they were guarding, the party managed to get the essential stuff they wanted back in town.

After some appropriate but unsuccessful use of abilities, I managed to work a successfully gained fact (I think it was "a twig snaps") into the next encounter -- attack by ten zombies. I discovered the zombies as statted in Dungeon Pak B1, with their soak and ability drain, are WAY tougher than any Level 1 monster has a right to be.

Raven successfully cast Intimidating Intimidation upon the lot of them. I thought having them all run away would make for a lame encounter, so I turned the successes into a -2 penalty to the zombies for the rest of the fight. This meant the zombies had a hard time hitting or dodging, but still got their huge soak pool. This also meant the zombies ganged up on the combat types instead. These three took some punishment from the undead, particularly Blacktree, who suffered some pretty severe draining of abilities. Things getting more desperate now, the time came for splitting of hairs as to exactly for WHAT each ability could be used. It was now becoming clear that we hadn't sufficiently nailed down the definitions on some abilities. I let some become more flexible ("Okay, so um, you CAN use Combat Ecstacy successes for Damage OR to hit OR initiative, but not at the same time"), and nixed others where the rules suggested such. I'm not completely satisfied with the consistency of my rulings here.

So after a lengthy roll-and-whiff-a-thon, the zombies fell and the team was ready to lick their wounds, with Purge Blood, and Healing and what not. By this time, we had been adventuring for four hours and brought the session to a close just before discovering the subterranian crypt.

Concerns about the system:

-Successfully captured the feel of OD&D in the "You can do ANYTHING! The sky's the limit! Oh, except THAT, you can't do that, that's specifically covered in the rules..." department.
-Wasn't clear about how to handle exhaustion of a small pool due to ties. We ultimately agreed to add a die to each pool, although the rule suggesting such wasn't explicitly referring to quite this situation.
-The organization of the rules leaves something to be desired as an in-play referenence. Yes, relatively few mechanics, but they're strewn throughout the book in blocks of prose.
-More guidelines as to the scope of abilities would have been nice. Prior GM experience for too powerful vs. too restrictive is utterly inapplicable for this game.
-Along these lines, the game seems to require MORE ad hoc ruling from the GM than running a "broken" simulationist system. I had been looking forward to a very non-authoritarian, player-driven experience. In order to  run a less silly game, I get the impression I will need to use a more heavy hand than use the rules as written.

I did not succeed in creating the "dark and gritty" feel for which I was going. I chalk this up partially to being busy adjucating mechanics, but also because we were playing at a game store. On the plus side, this DID generate some amusing looks among the Games Workshop crowd. Maybe because what passes for rules-lawyering in Dunjon generates some strange-sounding conversations.


Hmm... I'm not sure if any of that reads coherently, but I promised I'd get a play summary up in 72 hours. I'll let the players chime in now.

[Grover]

I was the player for Sir Samuel.  I had a lot of fun - especially with character creation, but I think gameplay bogged down a bit during the zombie fight.  Since the game, I've bought the rules off of the website (would've done it earlier if I had known the PDF was only 6.75$ :)  I have a couple thoughts, in no particular order.

We never really used the movement rules in combat (In terms of moving towards and away from zombies, and making Movement tests, and what I thought of as attacks of opportunity).  I think with more familiarity with the system, combat will go faster, and be more interesting.

One problem, in terms of going for a gritty feel, are the rules for equipment handling.  You have the goofy situation of characters going off without the equipment that you really should bring to a dungeon (at least I got a sword - the poor barbarian was going in with nothing :).  I actually don't think that's so bad, if you downgrade your expectations of initial character competence (i.e. don't think paladin - think squire who has run off to fight evil - it's still a bit off for a gritty feel, but it doesn't have to be blatantly silly).  

I think the biggest problem with trying to run a gritty campaign is that resources are not very limited.  First of all, lots of opportunities to loot means lots of chances to get whatever toy you want to have.  Secondly, unlimited magic means that so long as one character can cast healing spells, you never have any attrition from damage.  After the zombie fight, the poor barbarian was very close to dead, but the spellcasters were able to easily heal him back to full.

I would propose the following modifications if you want to have a gritty campaign.
1) Spellcasters are limited in the number of spells they can cast per scene - perhaps a limit based on their spell-casting ability rating (ability rating for secondary casters, double ability rating for primary casters).
2) Corpses are, by default, not lootable.
(Alternatively, the players could not take advantage of all the opportunities to help their characters out - but I think it would be better to be explicit about the limitations)  I think taking these resources away would provide a better feel of 'adventurers struggling to survive in a hostile world'.

Steve

[Christopher Weeks]

Hi, Grule here,

I continue to think that the main problem was our lack of familiarity with the rules.  But I'm still not sure how long it will take to make them second nature and if, in the end, we'll decide it's worth the time investment.  I hope it turns out because there's a lot in Donjon that I like.

I'd be interested to hear from other Donjoneers if combat is universally slow, or if it speeds up with familiarity.

I'd be interested to hear what other Donjoneers do about looting the corpses of bugs for shields.  I don't see a great solution that maintains both the feel of Donjon and the setting verisimilitude.  Unless it's just totally appropriate to add a difficulty adjustment for the plausibility of the loot.  I mean, maybe there's a shield embedded in the turf right where the centipede died, but it's less likely with an extra six dice tacked onto the value of the item.

To explicate what Larry wrote about ties: if the two high dies in a pool of five tie both dice in a pool of two, what do you do?

I had been looking forward to a very non-authoritarian, player-driven experience. In order to run a less silly game, I get the impression I will need to use a more heavy hand than use the rules as written.

I wonder if there's something that we can do as a group, outside of the game, to facilitate the "player-driven experience" while still hewing to the serious mode that I think we all agreed to.

Another potential factor in the less than dark and gritty atmosphere is the fact that some of us met for the first time that day.  We'll hopefully learn to groove better as we get to know one another.

I agree with Steve that layering range and movement onto how we were handling thing would make them more satisfying, but I'm afraid of the additional time it would take.

With regard to magic as it contributes to the gritty feel, I think that limiting the number of spell dice that can be drawn per location -- haing them regenerate over time, would be the most atmospheric solution, but would add another thing to track, unless it were fairly abstract (maybe just by scene, or more if the venue doesn't change).  Resources would be better controlled, I think, by just limiting the level of the caches.  Our likelihood of getting anything particularly groovy from zombie corpses is pretty low, but a four-die cache is somethine else entirely.

[anonymouse]

1: Don't feel bad about adjusting the scope of facts to fit the setting; if it bugs (heh heh) you guys to find a shield inside a centipede.. then don't! This really just boils down to the group's social contract; what's acceptable, what's not. One of the critters might've had a wicked sharp pincer to use as a weapon, or a particularly hard bit of carapace for the shield.

2: When I'm running Donjon for a new group, I always let each character have a single piece of low-value treasure. That way they have SOMETHING and don't run into the soul-destroying wall of, "My holy knight who is blessed by the king and the god.. is wearing a loincloth and wielding a whole lot of nothing."

3: Combat is crazy slow when one of two things happens: a) there are a lot of enemies (ten zombies?! ack!!), or b) you play out the combat to the death.

Donjon combat is in exchanges or series; that's all the initiative counts for all the participants. When all of those are used up.. you're not forced to keep fighting. The Donjon Master and players decide if they want to start another exchange, or what.

What I wind up doing with big crazy battles (sometimes it's just fun, you know?) is running a single exchange. Every enemy that's felled (or really close to it) can be looted. If the players did well in that exchange, I usually let 'em walk over the rest of them, but no looting of the non-exchange bodies. If they were doing poorly, I might bring in yet more enemies to force them to retreat.

There's that DM/Player antagonism, but neither side should let the game come to a standstill. Just keep movin' on.

Mostly, though, if the DM wants a fight to the death, do fewer but tougher enemies.

4) Remember to use facts to mess with the odds before, during, or after an exchange. If someone states that zombies are rendered pacified when splashed with holy water, and someone else digs in their pack and brings some up up, well.. you're set!

[Christopher Weeks]

4) Remember to use facts to mess with the odds before, during, or after an exchange. If someone states that zombies are rendered pacified when splashed with holy water, and someone else digs in their pack and brings some up up, well.. you're set!

I think the power of facts is unclear.  I mean, let's say I have the turn undead ability, and I succeed and use a success to state the fact that the ten oncoming zombies cower and flee at the sight of my divine radiance, do they?  How much effect is that one fact worth?

Clinton wrote into the game an example of turning someone into a chicken with a spell.  So, they turn into a chicken, but they're not impeded in any way -- normal stats, normal attacks, etc.  What exactly does it mean to be turned into a chicken or made afraid or pushed into a pit?  And why not just state the fact that the enemy warlord has a heart attack?

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

I think the power of facts is unclear.  I mean, let's say I have the turn undead ability, and I succeed and use a success to state the fact that the ten oncoming zombies cower and flee at the sight of my divine radiance, do they?  How much effect is that one fact worth?

This is an old topic, actually, and you'll see that there were threads on this quite early.

The real question is, "Can a single fact void an entire combat?"

My feeling is that, yes, it can, but you get no rewards in this case. For example, if you find that proverbial secret door, and flee, then combat over, but no rewards. Changed him into a chicken? Then his treasure changed with him (and, sure, if you use magic to change him back you can get loot - same as the use of any ability). Turned the Zombies? Then you'll have to go after them if you want what they're protecting.

I personally like how this works - yes, characters can easily get out of danger. But this is thematically appropriate, and, if they do, they'll have expended resources in the process. So they're losing their investment in the combat when they do flee. What's also interesting is that there's nothing that says that the GM can't have the same creatures attack the PCs "on their way out of the dungeon." Having moved to a different location, or recovered from magic, or whatever.

One other quick comment. Paladins with no armor are a feature of the game, not a bug.

Mike