Using Cards as Coins

[quozl]

I had an idea that I haven't tried out yet but I'd thought I'd run it by all of you first.

Instead of coins, each player gets a deck of cards to use as their "coins".  Shuffle the deck and draw the number of coins that you start with.  When you use a coin, play it face-up in a discard pile.  If there is a complication, only cards 1-5 count as successes.  Cards are reshuffled only after all cards are discarded .

Complications would be resolved a lot faster since the coin spending and die rolling is combined into one card-playing action.  Also, there is a little resource management going on as you play the higher cards for traits and such but save the lower cards for complications.

What do you think?

[Christopher Weeks]

It's an interesting idea.  One thing, right off, is that Complication reward for the winner would go way up.  Also, it might create a drive to dump losing cards into a complication in order to refresh them for an extra draw.  And what do you do when you're calling on traits that already exist, draw off the deck?  (I've been envisioning the cards all coming from your hand, but that wouldn't strictly work.)

[quozl]

Complication rewards would stay the same since the only successes are cards ace through 5.  I was envisioning all spent coins to be cards in your discard pile and all unspent coins as cards in your hand.  I guess called traits would have to come from the deck.

And, yes, I considered the incentive to start complications in order to get better cards.  I think that's a good thing!

[Christopher Weeks]

We, the players, have individual discard piles?  And the cards in the piles have what effect under what circumstances?

As I "stat out" a Character Component, I'm playing cards from my hand to the discard (normally cards of higher face value), right?

Then a Complication starts -- my guy is punching your guy.  We each draw on three traits that already exist.  So we're drawing random cards from the deck, for those three, or we're using the discard because we used those cards to build up the Components in the Complication?  And I also create three environmental factors to buff my "dice" pool -- playing three five-or-lower cards.  Is that all right, so far?

The average payoff is certainly going to be higher because you're only going to spend cards that you know are going to be successes.  That means that instead of the winner getting 1.25 Coins per trait (is that right?), you're going to get more (you could call it an average of 2.5, but it isn't really meaningful since it's not a random function).

I wonder if you could replace the edge-die mechanic with ties resulting in including one more number in the pool of successes or something.  A tie in successes means that you re-evaluate the Complication with the understanding that sixes are now successes, then sevens, etc.  Or maybe you move the "bracket" of five successful cards up a notch, so aces don't count, but sixes do.  Then twos don't cound but sevens do.  That would ratchet up the tension the way edge dice are supposed to, and increase the payout, while adding a layer of complexity to the tactics of card play.

I probably don't need to say this, but I'm finding the idea intriguing.

[quozl]

Yes, each player has their own deck of cards and discard pile.  The discard pile has no effect in play except that any cards in the discard pile cannot be used until the entire deck has been discarded.  It is then shuffled and becomes the new deck.

As you stat out the character, you'll want to use your cards higher than 5.  When a complication starts, you will put whatever cards you bid face down in front of you.  Therefore, you may want to use a bunch of cards higher than 5 in order to bluff your opponent.  All trait and environmental factors get drawn off the deck and placed face-down without the player looking at them.  Then when all card bidding is done, cards are flipped over and only ace through five count as successes.  Those successes are added up for the winner's payoff.  It will probably be higher than the dice average but I don't think too much so, unless a player waits until they get 3 or 4 fives before they enter a complication, hoping for a huge payoff.

Of course, only playtesting will show what really happens.

[Christopher Weeks]

I know I'm not owed anything, but I keep hoping that the game's authors will comment on this, particularly on any important probability issues or other unforeseen consequences that I'm not thinking of.

Chris

[Valamir]

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't produce functional play.  It has some definite quirks.  

I'm asssuming you have a deck representing the bank.  A hand representing your Wealth, and a discard pile representing spent Wealth that will eventually get shuffled back into the Bank.

Quirk #1:  If you then are going to draw from the deck in a Complication when you draw on existing Traits you won't have the same 50% chance of success.  Ignoring the fact that cards mess with probabilities as they become "used" there are 13 different cards in a suit, making a success as defined above 5 out 13 (somewhat less than 40%) rather than 5 out of 10.  You'd need to discard out of play the face card (or find some cool new Gimmick where they represent something special other than a normal "coin".


Quirk #2:  The current rules reward developing permanent Traits for Components and then reusing those Components throughout the game (so you can keep getting free Dice out of your initial investment).  This encourages a tighter game because its always more cost effective to use an existing character rather than continually inventing new ones.

You lose some of this when you go to a hand of Cards that you can choose from.  Calling on an existing Trait may give you a free draw from the Deck, but its a random draw.  Inventing a new Trait or environmental feature on the spur of the moment, however, lets you play a card from your hand...where you can select intentionally the card you want to use.  Currently if I spend 1 Coin to say "the sun is in your eyes" to add a die to my pool I have a 50% chance that that will wind up helping me and if it does, and I win that 1 Coin could be worth anywhere from 1 to 5 bonus Coins.  If instead I can choose a card from my hand to say "the sun is in your eyes" then I KNOW whether it will help me and by how much.  This then becomes superior to the random draw if I use existing Traits.

You may or may not mind that, but from my perspective it would be a negative feature.  Instead, I'd recommend keeping your Wealth in a face down pile as well (like in War) and draw from that deck randomly when you spend "Coins".  That way its the same for each...and also much faster than sorting through a hand of 25 cards for that last remaining 5.

If when you spend Coins normally you always keep them face down, and discard face down to the discard pile then you make it more difficult to "count cards" and "game" the odds for the next Complication, which I think would also be a plus.

At that point you can even get rid of seperate decks and just use a multiple deck Blackjack Shoe reshuffling whenever the reshuffle marker come up.