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275647 Posts in 27717 Topics by 4283 Members Latest Member: - otto Most online today: 57 - most online ever: 429 (November 03, 2007, 04:35:43 AM)
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Author Topic: Diaspora: How I Learned 2 Stop Worrying & Love the Forge  (Read 12457 times)
contracycle
Member

Posts: 2807


« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2005, 04:01:00 AM »

Quote from: Ron Edwards

Or if you want to look at it this way, "Lenin really dissolves the dictatorship this time. Stalin never shows up."


Well that was singularly distasteful.

I'm in the disapointed camp too.  I cant see what Drupal has to offer, right there on the front is a link to their forums.

But I really cannot see the purposes.  A diaspora?  Why not "graduates"?  Do you close a school down just because a given cohort moves out into the world?

And I fully agree that the high probability is that the the collected work here will essentially vanish into the ether as if it had never been carried out.  An idea or concept exists only inasmuch as it is propagated by actual live people, not merely appearing in a document in some archive.  The construction of a body, or movement, or party for such a purpose is a basic form of social engineering, and the converse is true: eliminating that body almost always eliminates those ideas from circulation.
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"He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Clinton R. Nixon
Member

Posts: 2624


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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2005, 04:45:18 AM »

Everyone! Relax.

Let me reiterate:

1) One Day in the Far Future, the Forge probably will not exist. It'll be archived somewhere, to be sure.

2) Right Now, good stuff is happening outside the Forge. It is primarily the first and second waves of Forge posters that have now moved to other sites, usually their own. ("Graduate" is a great term. Thanks, contracycle. Someone will hate it, though.)

3) Me personally, I want to help you Tap that Keg Of Good Brew with technology. I don't want to assimilate these back into the Forge.

4) The Forge is not what it used to be in the Good Old Days. If it does not evolve, its death will be sooner rather than later. We're being proactive, but not hasty.

----

On a side note: you can turn off forums in Drupal. And, no, we're not moving to that or anything. If it had existed in its current form three years ago, and I'd known what a forum would turn out like, I'd have used it. That's all.
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Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games
JamesDJIII
Member

Posts: 201


« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2005, 05:23:51 AM »

If there is an explosion of places like the Forge, let me just say: good.

We need a hundred more Forges. Places to think, explore, grow, and gosh darn it, have a good time.

I look around and I see that "gamer" is still a bad word, and in a larger scale, gaming is still looked at like it's something only the deviant, maladjusted, or socially inept would engage in seriously.

On the bright side, this site has given me real ideas and tools so that I can enjoy RPGs once again.

Clinton, Ron, and all the rest - Thanks!
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Bill Cook
Member

Posts: 501


« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2005, 07:34:58 AM »

Quote from: Ron Edwards
Go away (said nicely).


Wow. I think this is pretty hard to misinterpret. Well, I guess even the Beatles can't stay together forever. It's been fun. And crazy:)
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Trevis Martin
Member

Posts: 499


« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2005, 09:05:37 AM »

We're freaking out too early here folks.

I'm really glad to see more vital communities 'graduate' from the Forge.  And I'm sure the Forge will be around for a while yet.  Though I can hardly pass up the opportunity to thank the community as a whole, and specifically those hard working moderators, for its usefulness and entertainment.

I personally am not leaving the party until they kick me out and lock the door.  But I'm attending all these other parties at the same time.

God bless the Internet.

best

Trevis
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Brendan
Member

Posts: 144


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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2005, 01:30:13 PM »

Shouldn't graduates of the Forge be called "Smiths?"

(I am not one of these.)
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Bankuei
Guest
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2005, 02:23:15 PM »

Hi guys,

Let's not forget that even if the Forge evaporated tomorrow- the people still exist, and have their own networks.  Anyone who likes the ideas, will keep them around, interpreted as they see fit.  Anyone who dislikes the ideas will further develop their own views.  The ideas won't just disappear, because the ideas are held by people.

Gareth is quite right that any organization constructed with a -purpose- is a form of social engineering- but the purpose of the Forge has always been discussion and sharing of information- not producing dogma or winning converts.  Though some folks might believe otherwise, this decision to exit gracefully is proof of that.  

Not only that, but we also have to take an honest look that Ron & Clinton have been holding down the logistics of running the place by themselves, and they might actually have (gasp) their own lives to live aside from taking care of things here.  To me its a sign of intelligent management and responsibility to recognize when a) you've thrown the good party, but you're ready to close it up, and b) to let people know ahead of time so that they can figure out rides etc.  

All in all, I'm looking forward to see what's going to happen next.

Chris
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contracycle
Member

Posts: 2807


« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2005, 05:11:15 AM »

Quote from: Bankuei

Gareth is quite right that any organization constructed with a -purpose- is a form of social engineering- but the purpose of the Forge has always been discussion and sharing of information- not producing dogma or winning converts.  Though some folks might believe otherwise, this decision to exit gracefully is proof of that.  


Producing dogma and winning converts are both techniques that organisations adopt so that they can then pursue their objectives; they are never ends in themselves, but means.  I was under the impression that the puopose of the forge was to open up design based on a certain set of views, or indeed dogmas if you prefer.  If that purpose is no longer to be pursued, presumably the field will be conceded to d20 kudzu by default.
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"He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Green
Member

Posts: 247


« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2005, 11:43:34 AM »

I'm not going to say that I'll be emotionally distraught when the Forge dissipates, but I am interested in what will happen with the (more or less) centralized community oriented toward designing and playtesting games.

I could start a Yahoo group for this express purpose, but I don't like putting time and energy into something only for myself if I mean to share it with others.
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Bankuei
Guest
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »

Hi Gareth,

Quote
Producing dogma and winning converts are both techniques that organisations adopt so that they can then pursue their objectives; they are never ends in themselves, but means.  I was under the impression that the puopose of the forge was to open up design based on a certain set of views, or indeed dogmas if you prefer.


Popularity, support in numbers, resources, or material gain are all feasible goals using dogma and converts.  The simple act of sharing information and providing a venue for discussion requires neither of those means.

And while the Forge does limit its focus to independently owned games(according to a particular definition of what those are), this is no different than how a book on recipes has a focus, according to its definitions of "Indian" or "Thai".  This doesn't preclude other recipe books, or books from having useful information or being worthwhile to checking out.  Complaining that a recipe book is "dogmatic" because it doesn't contain information on Newtonian physics is a problem for the reader, not the book.

Also notice a long history of welcoming folks to produce alternate ideas, and theories as a matter of discussion here, regardless of agreement or disagreement.  A place built on dogmatic agendas would not allow Chris Lehrich to write his theories, given Fang Langford a forum to pursue his thoughts, allowed games developed independent of the Forge to hold forums here without converting to the "party line"(HeroQuest, Riddle of Steel, Burning Wheel).  Dogmatic institutions are also especially against the idea of recommending alternatives to look at, but here, in this thread alone, we have a strong recommendation towards plurality and independence of thought.

Regardless of what theories or ideas are here, I think the best thing we, the Forge, have produced is a fine example of solid discourse as a standard expectation, rather than flamewars consisting of personal attacks, faulty argumentation, and senseless ego posturing.  That isn't to say that we haven't seen these things here, but to say that they aren't the norm, as you can find in many other places of discussion online.

As other folks open up their own means of discussion and sharing, that level of discourse, would be the only thing I'd like to see more people "convert" to.

Chris
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contracycle
Member

Posts: 2807


« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2005, 01:20:49 AM »

Quote from: Bankuei

Popularity, support in numbers, resources, or material gain are all feasible goals using dogma and converts.  The simple act of sharing information and providing a venue for discussion requires neither of those means.


The convention landlord can provide a venue for discussion without having any stake whatsoever in the results of that discussion.  Venue provision is not activism.

Once again, what use is popularity if you have no purpose for it?  Popularity is a means not an end for everyone except entertainers.

Quote

And while the Forge does limit its focus to independently owned games(according to a particular definition of what those are), this is no different than how a book on recipes has a focus, according to its definitions of "Indian" or "Thai".  This doesn't preclude other recipe books, or books from having useful information or being worthwhile to checking out.  Complaining that a recipe book is "dogmatic" because it doesn't contain information on Newtonian physics is a problem for the reader, not the book.


Actually, this is a colloquial error.  The dogma of a movement is the minimum doctrinal knowledge required to be a functional member.  In Forge terms, that constitites the GNS essays and the glossary.  Colloquially, we refer to dogma in a negative sense but this is not necessary.  Excessive reverance for the dogma is a bad thing which suppresses debate, but dogma proper is a useful property of any functional group.

Anyway discussion of dogma is neither here nor there; I never levelled any criticism at the forge in this regard, rather the opposite: my concern is that the forges developed dogma vanishes into an archive, existing only as dead documents.
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Impeach the bomber boys:
www.impeachblair.org
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"He who loves practice without theory is like the sailor who boards ship without a rudder and compass and never knows where he may cast."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Nathan
Member

Posts: 313


WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2005, 09:37:38 AM »

Ron and Clinton have done some awesome things with the Forge. It's a great resource, and this is probably a wise move in the scheme of things. Seriously -- why not go out "on top", in a sense? Rather than drag along until no one posts at all... or try to figure out how to stay fresh... why not just let it die and be thankful for the immense discussion, insight, and fun while it lasted?

Many gaming sites... games... game companies seem to run counter this. Gaming Outpost, for a time, was an awesome site with great discussion (birthing many of the early Forge-peeps). For a time, it even had an exciting subscription system and pay-to-read article system -- but now, where is the Gaming Outpost? In another extended transition into a new site, with no folks checking it out, with uncertain history -- why not just archive it and do something new? It was great for a while, but maybe it's time to go into a different direction.

So, yeah, why does there have to be a "2nd edition"?

Thanks,
Nathan
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Andy Kitkowski
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Posts: 827

I LIKE GAMES


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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2005, 10:20:28 AM »

I'm excited, but at the same time, with a huge network of nodes, however will I keep track of all the fruits produced all over the net?  John Kim will have his work cut out for him, that's for sure. :-)

Quote from: Ron Edwards
The "industry" can have its quotes taken off, because our games and publishing efforts are an industry now - only peripherally and non-dependently related to the rather sad, vague, and humpbacked pseudo-industry.


I came up with the word "Indiestry"* the other day.  Merry Christmas.

-Andy

*Indistry works too, but looks more accidental than intentional.
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The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.
clehrich
Member

Posts: 1557


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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2005, 05:33:07 PM »

Quote from: Nathan
Ron and Clinton have done some awesome things with the Forge. It's a great resource, and this is probably a wise move in the scheme of things. Seriously -- why not go out "on top", in a sense? Rather than drag along until no one posts at all... or try to figure out how to stay fresh... why not just let it die and be thankful for the immense discussion, insight, and fun while it lasted?
For me, while I entirely agree with the initial remarks, my feeling is that I don't see a particular decline in posting or in their depth and value.  If it's really declining, that's one thing, but from where I sit, there is nothing to indicate that we especially need to "move on."  The only factor there, so far as I can see, is if Ron and Clinton do not want to continue doing what they've been doing.  That eliminates the venue.  But the Forge itself, currently, seems to me healthy and robust.
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Chris Lehrich
M. J. Young
Member

Posts: 2198


WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2005, 09:53:43 PM »

Quote from: clehrich
Quote from: Nathan
Ron and Clinton have done some awesome things with the Forge. It's a great resource, and this is probably a wise move in the scheme of things. Seriously -- why not go out "on top", in a sense? Rather than drag along until no one posts at all... or try to figure out how to stay fresh... why not just let it die and be thankful for the immense discussion, insight, and fun while it lasted?
For me, while I entirely agree with the initial remarks, my feeling is that I don't see a particular decline in posting or in their depth and value.  If it's really declining, that's one thing, but from where I sit, there is nothing to indicate that we especially need to "move on."  The only factor there, so far as I can see, is if Ron and Clinton do not want to continue doing what they've been doing.  That eliminates the venue.  But the Forge itself, currently, seems to me healthy and robust.

That was my reaction as well. I have trouble keeping on top of everything here--and[list=1][*]It is all in one place, and so does not require me to hunt all over for current information;[*]Because it is all in one place, there is not a great deal of duplication of effort (i.e., if Vincent and Paganini are both saying the same thing, they're both saying it here, not in several other places, and so one of them will say "I agree, and" or "I agree, but", and I don't have to read both of them to figure out that they agree).[*]It has a substantial common vocabulary with a certain amount of authority behind it--something that will certainly deteriorate as the work splinters and new terms are developed or old ones expanded, qualified, and modified, coming to have different nuances of meaning in different quarters.[/list:o]I don't see the slowdown here. I actually at times wish it would slow down, so I could get to bed earlier--but Nathan just published two articles on the forums which I could not read as thoroughly as I would have liked, because the volume of material here is taxing my ability to keep up. I don't think it was so high when I first arrived. Far from slacking off, I think it's still growing.

--M. J. Young
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