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Diceless conversion quagmire

Started by Seth L. Blumberg, February 19, 2002, 06:37:08 PM

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Seth L. Blumberg

So there I was, trying to think of a scenario to run for AmberCon 2002 (see, GMs get preference over non-GMs when selecting games, and the popular games are damn hard to get into, so it makes sense to run an event if you possibly can), when my friend the Amber GM Laureate said "Why don't you do an Exalted game? I've been dying to play Exalted ever since you talked me into buying it." (Why did I do that? Because I really like the setting.)

Being an utter congenital idiot, I agreed.

So now I'm stuck trying to create a diceless version of Exalted.

For those of you who don't know, the "social contract" of AmberCons is that games other than ADRPG (that's the Amber Diceless Role-Playing Game, from Phage Press) are acceptable as long as they are diceless; "diceless" is more precisely defined as "using no Fortune-based mechanics," so cards, coin-flipping, etc. are unacceptable as well. Since I'm not a brilliantly original game designer, and anyway it wouldn't make sense to waste a brilliantly original idea on a game I can never publish, I'm trying to adapt an available set of diceless rules to the purpose. Ideally, I'd like the result to be more suited to Narrativist play than the published system, so that I can use it instead of the published system if/when I run Exalted (the setting of which I like very much) for my own gaming group.

ADRPG would be the obvious choice, but it just doesn't work--one of the fundamental simplifying assumptions Wujcik made in designing that system is that the characters have all lived so long, and done so many different things, that it's meaningless to try to quantify their skills, because they've had time to master any skill that interests them. This does not apply to Exalted, where, though PCs can expect to live 2000 years or more (barring violence), they start out less than a century old. I would have to invent a skill system for ADRPG, and the more I think about that, the more nausea I feel. Anyway, I've never been impressed with the ADRPG system--most GMs wind up discarding the Karma mechanics and just using Drama for everything.

Right now, I'm looking at a modified version of the Story Engine (second edition) from Hubris Games. The diceless variation of the rules uses a simple Karma mechanic, and if I decide to use these rules again outside the AmberCon environment, I can easily put the Fortune back in without modifying anything else.

WARNING: The rest of this post will make very little sense to you unless you are familiar with both Exalted and the Story Engine.

Instead of allocating Descriptors to the Aspects of Matter, Mind, Spirit and Chaos, I'm using Physical, Mental and Social Aspects, plus "Virtue Descriptors" that are subdivided according to Exalted's four Virtues of Compassion, Conviction, Temperance and Valor. I'm also increasing the starting allowance of Descriptors (since four Descriptors isn't really enough even for mere mortals, and the Exalted are supposed to be substantially more butch than that)--at the moment I'm looking at nine Descriptors, three Virtue Descriptors, and one Quirk for starting characters, but I may adjust that based on play-testing, if I even get a chance to do play-testing before the con. (Unconquered Sun help me if I don't.)

Physical, Mental and Social Descriptors will be used for scene resolution exactly the way Descriptors are normally used in the Story Engine (including burning them for Quick Takes or to increase point totals). Virtue Descriptors can be burned to increase point totals, too, but only under the same circumstances where one would ordinarily be able to use Virtue dice in Exalted; instead of adding one point (as regular Descriptors do when burned), they add one point per Descriptor in that Virtue. Virtue Descriptors must also be burned to act against one's Virtues, under the same circumstances where one would need to fail a Virtue check in Exalted. Limit and Limit Breaks work exactly as in Exalted, except that one's Limit Break taboo causes one to gain Limit points equal to the number of Descriptors one has in the Limit Break's governing Virtue, and experiencing a Limit Break causes one to un-burn the same number of Descriptors of the player's choice (regular Descriptors, Virtue Descriptors, or any combination).

Trait Affinities are restricted to the 25 standard Abilities from Exalted; a starting character gets all his Caste Affinities at "weak," plus 15 additional affinity increments to spread around as desired (where a weak affinity costs one increment, a mild affinity costs two, and a strong affinity costs three). When buying Trait Affinities with Story Points, Caste and Favored Affinities are one point cheaper than unfavored Affinities. Affinity Specialties are available (up to three per Trait Affinity, cost is one Story Point for Caste/Favored Affinities or two for unfavored, each adds one point to scene resolution where applicable); unlike Exalted, a character can't take the same specialty more than once.

Backgrounds will be handled as Prime Affinities, simply because anything that isn't a Descriptor, a Quirk or a Trait Affinity must be a Prime Affinity. Need to think more about that part of the system.

Charms are going to be the real bastard. I haven't figured out what to do about them yet.

I'm also going to need to tweak the Hard Rate. At first glance, it looks as though doubling it should be about right (Easy=2, Hard=4, Very Hard=8, and so on), since the point totals used by the diceless version of the Story Engine are equal to the dice pools used by the regular version (and therefore about twice the expected number of Odds). I absolutely cannot understand why the rules don't say to double the Hard Rate when playing diceless.

Well, that's what I've got so far. Comments urgently solicited, and if you think you've got a better idea for an underlying mechanic, don't be afraid to throw my work away and start from scratch. I'm not proud, I'll take whatever help I can get.
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue

Epoch

I'm not familiar with Story Engine nor with the details of Exalted, so I can't help you for that last bit.  But, hey, never let it be said I don't pimp my own creations -- while I'm sure that you won't find the New Mutiny system a simple drop-in fit for your game, you might find some ideas.

http://wso.williams.edu/~msulliva/campaigns/amber/mutiny/rules.html">Click here for New Mutiny rules

I'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine.  Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses.  Create more generalized powers that include (say) a set of Charms apiece, and let people put points in those powers and describe their power use as anything that's descriptively similar to the included set of Charms.

In a con game, you won't be able to use the wealth of options available to Exalted anyhow, so you might as well keep things simpler for your sanity.

Bailywolf

OK, let me peface by saying that I LOVE AMBER DRPG AND THE FACT THAT I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO AMBERCON IS ON OF THE WORST INJUSTICES IN THIS MOST UNJUST OF UNIVERSES

But I can deal with my own trauma.

As for a diceless EXALTED...

I ran a Diceless Mage game for six sessions, and it went swimmingly once I adopted the right mindset.

With the Storyteller mechanics, you generaly have a trait range of about 10 steps (five attribute dice + 5 skill/ability dice).  Sometimes you get more.

Ten steps is plenty to adjudicate Amber-style narritive conflict, and I managed it even with the damn-near infinite permutations possible with the Mage magic mechanics.  

Admitidly, I don't understand the Exalted power mechanics (I've done no more than thumb through it), but it can't be as frustrating as all the wonky stuff players come up with using mage magic (or, for that matter, the Logrus, but that is a beast of a different suite).

I found it was easy to judge what a player could do by ignoring all the system mechanics associated with a given power, and look at the descriptions of what each power level offered.  This is how Amber works, anyway.

Willpower can be bid to increase your action total, as can the "power meter" trait (quintessence in Mage) for mystical actions.

When you need to know just how much a magical ability modifies a given total, use it's dot-ranking.  

I also ported over Good Stuff and Bad stuff.  Good Stuff costs Freebe points, while Bad Stuff grants Freebe Points.


I don't think you even need to make any kind of major conversion, when you have a perfectyl servicible diceless-ready system right there at hand.




And damn you damn you damn you.  I should be the one to go to Ambercon.







::sulk::

Seth L. Blumberg

Quote from: EpochI'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine. Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses.

I agree, and I consider that to be the greatest failing of ADRPG-influenced system designs. When the mechanics don't describe the character's strengths and weaknesses in sufficient detail, you have to go outside the mechanics. This is why, despite the emphasis on Karma in the ADRPG rules, every Amber game I've ever been in has been run using Drama for the vast majority of action resolution; since there are no rules for Drama-based action resolution, the GM is walking the high wire without a net. New Mutiny is an improvement, but not a vast one.

In fact, the examples of Trait Affinities in the Story Engine rules are even finer-grained than in Exalted--"fist-fighting" and "locksmith" are given as examples, whereas Exalted would subsume those under Brawl and Craft respectively.

Also, simplifying skills to the extent that you suggest would completely break the existing system of Castes from Exalted, destroying much of the game's flavor. I am trying to come up with diceless mechanics for Exalted, not create a new game in a strikingly similar setting.
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue

Epoch

Quote from: Metal Fatigue
Quote from: EpochI'd suggest, in general, that you try to avoid a "one to one" conversion of Exalted to Story Engine. Most diceless systems don't reward a listing of character abilities as fine-grained as the Storyteller system uses.

I agree, and I consider that to be the greatest failing of ADRPG-influenced system designs. When the mechanics don't describe the character's strengths and weaknesses in sufficient detail, you have to go outside the mechanics. This is why, despite the emphasis on Karma in the ADRPG rules, every Amber game I've ever been in has been run using Drama for the vast majority of action resolution; since there are no rules for Drama-based action resolution, the GM is walking the high wire without a net. New Mutiny is an improvement, but not a vast one.

I'd say that the reason that Amber always ends up being Drama instead of Karma is that pure Karma of the Amber sort is a remarkably poor resolution mechanic for almost every style of play.  It's hard to play a straight comparison system with non-numeric modifiers and not start thinking sneaky thoughts like, "Gosh, I'm not entirely sure that I want to look into the player's eyes and say, 'Your character dies.'"  Since the system makes it totally the GM's call as to when the player has piled enough non-numeric modifiers onto the situation in order to escape an unfavorable comparison, the GM has to take full responsibility for any unfortunate results -- and when neither the GM nor the player wants those results, Drama becomes a good cop-out.

If you want to avoid that situation, I suggest that going more fine-grained isn't the way to do it.  Get something else into the resolution system.  I'd suggest a "blind bid" solution (spend points for a one-time bonus to your trait).  That gives the player a chance to survive a hostile situation, and, by giving the player some control, lessens the GM's incentive to Drama out of a tough decision.

Quote from: Metal FatiugeIn fact, the examples of Trait Affinities in the Story Engine rules are even finer-grained than in Exalted--"fist-fighting" and "locksmith" are given as examples, whereas Exalted would subsume those under Brawl and Craft respectively.

Also, simplifying skills to the extent that you suggest would completely break the existing system of Castes from Exalted, destroying much of the game's flavor. I am trying to come up with diceless mechanics for Exalted, not create a new game in a strikingly similar setting.

Well, it's your game and your choice.  I think it's not a great one, but hey.  I'm not playing in it.  :)

So, if you're wedded to a Story Engine system, I can't help any further.  If you are interested in other options, I guess what I'd suggest is just using the White Wolf character sheet, and, essentially, system, but decide that "Die pool X" actually means "Total number of successes Y."

I'd go something like this:

Total die pool divided by 3, round up.

Then give people some success pools that they could spend from (maybe a pool for physical, mental, social, and magical things?) to raise their base number of successes, as described above.  You could spend up to your total die pool.

So, if you had a Dex + Melee of 9, you'd have 3 successes.  If you were fighting against someone who you had reason to believe might have 3 or more successes as well, then you might dip into your physical pool and grab two more successes, for a total of 5.

At any rate, good luck with it!

Seth L. Blumberg

Quote from: BailywolfI found it was easy to judge what a player could do by ignoring all the system mechanics associated with a given power, and look at the descriptions of what each power level offered. This is how Amber works, anyway.

Hmm...I think I started out with that approach and almost instantly dismissed it, but now I can't remember why...hmmmm....

Oh yeah. It was because of all the fiddly bookkeeping involved. See, Exalted has four or five different kinds of fiddly bookkeeping (Willpower, Limit, Virtue dice uses, Personal and Peripheral Essence Pools), where Mage has only two (Willpower and Quintessence). I wanted to minimize the bookkeeping for the benefit of Amber players who aren't used to it.

Of course, my current attempt includes Limit and burned Descriptors, and will probably include some kind of Essence pool, so maybe I'm not gaining that much any more.

QuoteAnd damn you damn you damn you. I should be the one to go to Ambercon.

::sulk::

Well, I've never been to A Far Southern Shadow or Courts of Chaos Con, both of which my friends tell me are a blast. So nyaah.
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue

Seth L. Blumberg

Quote from: EpochGet something else into the resolution system. I'd suggest a "blind bid" solution (spend points for a one-time bonus to your trait).

Allow me to point out that that's still a pure Karma mechanic. I don't see any randomizers.

In any case, that's more or less the way it works in the Story Engine. Scenes with active opposition are resolved by a bidding mechanic. It's not blind, though--the two (or more) sides bid back and forth until everyone passes. Action resolution in the diceless version of Story Engine is mostly a resource-management issue (how many Descriptors can I afford to burn in this scene?) rather than straight stat-comparison.

I'm not "wedded" to the Story Engine, but I'd like to see a suggestion with some noticeable advantage over it before I throw it out and start over again.
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue

Bailywolf

Blow away virtue

use limit as a supernatural total max (have more dots in your magical thingy than in Limit, and you risk- what's it called' a limit break.... think Chaos cancer... the GM says "you are tired and your Willpower is running low... if you use your charm at this level, you risk Limit Break, do you wish to continue?  yes, and their Stuff totals determines how bad it gets, no and they reduce their power.  

Essence pools should be easy enough (how many points are we talking about?)  Bring a big bag of those multi-colored gormet jelly beans.  I'll bet no one bitches about a pile of candy they get to eat as they burn them!

Clinton R. Nixon

Personally, I'd stay with the normal White Wolf character sheet all the way. I worked on a game like this that's continually on the back burner, and all attributes and skills were rated 1 to 5, as in White Wolf. In addition, you had an attribute called Fate, rated 1-5 (or 1-10, if you want people to have more control over their fate.)

Everyone starts out with a Fate Pool - 50's a good number - and you can spend up to your Fate on any action. Actions are rated at Attribute + Skill + Fate spent.

Quick. Easy. Works.
Clinton R. Nixon
CRN Games

Torrent

Cool Idea.  Exalted and StoryEngine are two of my favorite games.  I come to add my ideas to the group.

I like the idea of putting the Descriptors into the Mental, Physical, Social boxes.  This seems to fit well between both systems.  As do the use of Affinities for skills.  Your original post said something about a problem doing Charms...

Most Charms do one of two things:  
1) Allow the Exalt to add more points to a skill or attribute.  Basically channeling Essence into abilties they already have.  
2) Give them the power to do something extraordinary.
For both, there are special in-story related descriptions that go with the effect.  

Each character gets a pool of Essence.  The use of a type 1 above allows you to spend essence to add points to a scene, just as if you had a stronger Skill Affinity.  The use of a Type 2 is usually an all or nothing sort of thing.  You spend essence and can do X, sort of an narrative thing.  
Story Engine calls these sorts of things Gifts.  

Hope this helps.. luck to you in doing this sort of thing.

Seth L. Blumberg

Quote from: Bailywolflimit break.... think Chaos cancer... the GM says "you are tired and your Willpower is running low... if you use your charm at this level, you risk Limit Break, do you wish to continue? yes, and their Stuff totals determines how bad it gets, no and they reduce their power.

No. That radically changes the nature of Limit Breaks. There's a limit to how far I'm willing to stray from the source material.

Limit Breaks are tied to Virtues for a reason: they're a form of the Greek idea of the "tragic flaw."  They're not just a speed bump to keep you from spending too much power.

Quote from: BailywolfEssence pools should be easy enough (how many points are we talking about?) Bring a big bag of those multi-colored gormet jelly beans. I'll bet no one bitches about a pile of candy they get to eat as they burn them!

I like that idea. It's a good thing I'm the GM and not a player, though--I don't need that many calories.  (Typical Personal+Peripheral Essence pool is about 30-50.)

I'll need to have two different types of candy: maybe M&M's for Peripheral Essence and jellybeans for Personal Essence.  And I could use York Peppermint Patties for Limit....  This could get very silly, very fast.

Quote from: TorrentI like the idea of putting the Descriptors into the Mental, Physical, Social boxes. This seems to fit well between both systems.

Not only that, but it fixes a problem I have with the Story Engine: namely, that social Descriptors mostly get filed under Mind or Matter, neither of which is particularly appropriate.  If I'm "cute as a button" (Matter), how does that help me win a swordfight? If I'm "perpetually cheerful" (Mind), how does it aid me in understanding a complex mechanism? And if I'm trying to seduce someone, is that a Mind scene or a Matter scene?

Quote from: TorrentEach character gets a pool of Essence. The use of a type 1 above allows you to spend essence to add points to a scene, just as if you had a stronger Skill Affinity. The use of a Type 2 is usually an all or nothing sort of thing. You spend essence and can do X, sort of an narrative thing.

That's about what I was thinking. The trickiest part will be scaling the cost of Charms.  If I leave the costs as written, combat Charms will be way too cost-effective (since you'd be paying for one round's worth of Charm, but getting an entire scene's worth of effect). Much number-crunching is clearly called for.

Quote from: Clinton R NixonPersonally, I'd stay with the normal White Wolf character sheet all the way. I worked on a game like this that's continually on the back burner, and all attributes and skills were rated 1 to 5, as in White Wolf. In addition, you had an attribute called Fate, rated 1-5 (or 1-10, if you want people to have more control over their fate.) Everyone starts out with a Fate Pool - 50's a good number - and you can spend up to your Fate on any action. Actions are rated at Attribute + Skill + Fate spent.

That would sort of work (although I'd use the Virtue scores instead of Fate, probably). However, if I did it that way, I'd be pretty much stuck with round-by-round action resolution, which would drive Amber players screaming up the wall. There's also less room in that system for players to assume Director stance, whereas with the Story Engine, the rules for Quick Takes manage the flow of narrative control.

By the way, I really appreciate the chance to discuss this with you guys. It may not seem like I'm paying attention to your suggestions, but I really am, and it's very helpful for me to have a forum in which to talk through the design process.  I think a lot better out loud than I do on paper.

I'm still hoping someone will explain to me how I can do it all with Sorceror, though. :)
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue

Ron Edwards

Hi there,

This post is just about a small side-point, but every little bit, right?

In cinema, "Cute as a button" gets characters through fights all the time. [Cue discussion re: role-playing being or not being cinema. Fast-forward. Resume point.]

The swords are hacking, the bullets are firing, people are leapin' and screamin' all over the place. But I'm "cute as a button," which means I can do a Cyrano Jones waltz through the battlefield with nothing hitting me, and even (with a perky smile and head-tilt) ankle up behind a bad guy and push him ass over teakettle.

Think in terms of effects, not cause, and many descriptors are tremendously flexible especially in combat. One thing that I do not like about Story Engine is confining descriptors to "type," in that X or Y descriptor is for all intents and purposes absent in a scene of the wrong type. In practice, I've found that opening up that side of things - permitting descriptors to cross type - has no downside.

Best,
Ron

Epoch

Quote from: Metal Fatigue
Quote from: EpochGet something else into the resolution system. I'd suggest a "blind bid" solution (spend points for a one-time bonus to your trait).

Allow me to point out that that's still a pure Karma mechanic. I don't see any randomizers.

I'd argue that, in certain cases, the blind bid mechanic is effectively a randomizer -- or at least as much of one as, say, ro-sham-bo is for Minds Eye Theatre (which, like a blind bid mechanic, creates uncertainty from multiple deterministic elements which operate in ignorance of each other).

But I'm not interested in getting heavily into the theory or semantics of it.  It's a system which, in my experience, players find "meatier" and are more willing to use for serious decisions than the Amber base system.

Quote from: Metal FatigueI'm not "wedded" to the Story Engine, but I'd like to see a suggestion with some noticeable advantage over it before I throw it out and start over again.

Have I offended you somehow?  You seem really aggressive about this.  I don't know SE, you asked for help, and, from your initial message, I got the impression that you were really floundering with your current direction.

If I misinterpreted that, I apologize.  I can see that you're not finding my input helpful, and, since there's no point in my offering input that's not helpful, I'll withdraw from the discussion.

Bailywolf

Sorry about mu ignorance of Exalted- I really have only given the game a five minute look-over...

Conceptualy, how do Virtues and the limit break thing work?  What is the result of blowing it?  What is the core function of the WW mechanic that needs to be preserved?  Is it really just an excuse to limit power, bone characters, or reduce utitlity of supernatural ability, or is it an intimate element of setting/premise/color?  If you can niggle out the squishy naked interior of the mechanic, a practical soultion might be obvious.

Seth L. Blumberg

You know, I'm beginning to think I may need to run playtesting sessions with two or three different sets of mechanics and see which one goes more smoothly. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time.

Grr.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsOne thing that I do not like about Story Engine is confining descriptors to "type," in that X or Y descriptor is for all intents and purposes absent in a scene of the wrong type.

Well, you can burn any descriptor in any scene if you can provide a narrative justification for its use. Off-aspect descriptors just don't apply by default.

Quote from: Epochthe blind bid mechanic is effectively a randomizer

That is a very interesting idea. I'm not sure I agree with you, but I'd have to think really hard to figure out why not. It will have to wait for another time, since it's not strictly germane to this discussion.

Quote from: EpochFrom your initial message, I got the impression that you were really floundering with your current direction.

I thought I was, but it turned out that what I needed more than anything was someone to listen to me talk through the design. As I said, I think better out loud than on paper.

(For me, e-mail and forum postings are "out loud," not "on paper." Ingrained synaesthetic reflex. Weird, huh?)

Anyway, I do value your input, because it forces me to think about why I'm trying to do things the way I am. I would regret it if you chose to withdraw from the discussion.

Quote from: BailywolfConceptualy, how do Virtues and the limit break thing work? What is the result of blowing it? What is the core function of the WW mechanic that needs to be preserved? Is it really just an excuse to limit power, bone characters, or reduce utitlity of supernatural ability, or is it an intimate element of setting/premise/color?

One of the key elements of the setting is the idea that the Exalted are subject to a Great Curse uttered by the defeated Primordials. The effect of the Great Curse on the Solar Exalted is to exaggerate their virtues until they become flaws. Periodically, every Solar Exalted will experience emotional seizures in which their greatest Virtue is somehow turned against them. This is represented by the Limit Break mechanic: every time you act against your Virtues (and in a few other psychologically stressful circumstances), you gain Limit points, and when your Limit reaches ten, you flip out and suffer a Limit Break.

Virtue scores are also used to supplement and partially replace Willpower as a metagame mechanic: instead of spending temporary Willpower for extra successes, one may channel it through one's Virtue for a number of extra dice equal to that Virtue score, a number of times per session equal to that Virtue score (but only in circumstances where the Virtue is applicable: protecting the innocent would let you use Compassion, for instance, and Valor is generally applicable in any fight).

What I'm trying to preserve, therefore, is threefold: first, I want to retain the use of Virtue scores as a Pendragon-esque personality mechanic, where acting against the dictates of your Virtues costs you something; second, I want to retain the ability to use Virtues for metagame influence, which strikes me as a good mechanic for epic heroes; third, I want to retain the idea that the accumulation of psychological stress inevitably results in episodes of acting out.
the gamer formerly known as Metal Fatigue