RPG (Community) Legal System Defence (Fund)

[T'oma]

This is by No Means how I planned on introducing myself to this group,
but I have a sense of (possibly paranoid) urgency that far outweighs my hesitation.
(This is the same as a post-thread I have initiated on the
RPG-create group, mildly edited):


... an inevitable conundrum. Given the Maxim:

'Those Who Don't Know History Are Bound To Repeat It"

and, more significantly, its Corollary:

"Those Who Know History Know That It Repeats"

http://www.kochcomicart.com/images/crumbkafka_155.jpg

I unfortunately consider it Only a Matter of Time before An Unfortunate Series of Events exactly parallel to those which led to the creation of the EFF ( http://www.eff.org/ ), and, more to the point, _the Comic Book
Legal Defense Fund_ ( http://www.cbldf.org/ )inevitably happen to
some poor shmuck of a Game Designer, _probably in this very group_.

Given the Cultural Retraction that has been happening since the
Mid-80's regarding Fourth Amendment issues (but admittedly in response
to the overly self-indulgent expansiveness in the '60's and '70's) , and
the Marginal Cultural Status given to the Nascent (but admittedly
Maturing) Art Form of RPG, and the Theoretically Abusive Power (but admittedly controversally so) of Patriot Act I &II : I am frankly suprised it hasn't happened already!

Does anyone know of a pre-existing 501(3)(c) dedicated to the
Protection of the Civil Liberties of Game Designers? Is anyone
familiar with the process of setting up such a fund? Can anyone come
up with a better Name that creates a better Acronym than
RPG(C)LSD(F)....???

( The Above Post Proudly and somewhat Desperately displays the Blue
Ribbon in the hopes that Readers will look at the Moon rather than
Bite The Finger Pointing At It... http://www.eff.org/br/ )


Lovingly Hand Posted by that Rapscallion Sirrah

T'oma

Grand Imperial Fluff Knight Kodesh
in Her Majesty's Secret Service of Memetic Engineers

who seems to be grabbing a lot of BandWidth lately....

A SyllogisMobility BluePrint
Designed By The Grand High Council
 Of Her Majesty's Order
  Of Memetic Engineers
   For Navigating the AetherScape
    On Behalf of the
     PsychoNauts of Tomorrow in the Hopes That They To
      Shall Achieve
       SphereMastery of The Heavenly  Firmament (Copyright 2005)




YuMe MiRu MoNo TaCHi MiNa SuKuWaReRu


--- In rpg-create@yahoogroups.com, "peyoterattle" <peyoterattle@y...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rpg-create@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Adams" <michael.adams1@u...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I thought SJ, got flack, cause the book they were working on was
about
> > hacking, and the author/writer was interviewing real hackers, and the
> > FBI and like, thought it was another Anarchists Cookbook or like
manua
> > for doing computer crime. And the EFF (Electronic Freedom Foundation)
> > was founded afterwards to help deal with issues of how far the
FBI/CIA
> > and like can do in the world of the electronic privacy and more.
>
>
> That wasn't Flak. That was Planetary Bombardment (a raid on his office
> and violation of Civil Liberties proven to be extra-legal by his
> subsequent victorious lawsuit). Flak was/is being called nasty names
> by his/ones peers..
> > Does make me rethink a play/module I have been thinking of, deals
with
> > hijacking a aircraft, and ways to do it, that are not of the norm..
>
> Sounds Kewl!
>
> >
> > Not sure if the means is used by the bad guys or the good guys..
> >Just plot device.
>
> Oh, -Gotta- be the Good Guys! Moral Ambiguity in our PostModern age
> is all the rave! (Point of minor interest: The premiere episode of
> 'the Lone GunMen' X-Files spin-off show depicted a Robotic Hijacking
> of a plane by Shadow elements of the US Intel community to crash it
> into, you guessed it, the World Trade Center. Show debuted 1-3 years
> before The Tragedy)
>
> > But I do remember a discussion back in like 2000, about how to take
> > out a major bridge, and then 911 happened, and I know people had to
> > rethink what they are doing in games, and scenarios and like, and
> how much trouble you can get if the wrong people read what you write,
> > either to arrest you for questioning, or some one actually doing
> >what you thought about and how you thought it might happen..
>
> It's 1984 all over again-
>
> T'oma
>
> YuMe MiRu MoNo TaCHi MiNa SuKuWaReRu

[T'oma]

Yes, I'm an Idiot: I meant of course " FIRST Amendment" not " 4th Amendment"  (although the way -some- people play, not you of course, both Amendments may come into play..)


Lovingly Hand Posted by that Rapscallion Sirrah

T'oma

Grand Imperial Fluff Knight Kodesh
in Her Majesty's Secret Service of Memetic Engineers

who seems to be grabbing a lot of BandWidth lately....

A SyllogisMobility BluePrint
Designed By The Grand High Council
Of Her Majesty's Order
Of Memetic Engineers
For Navigating the AetherScape
On Behalf of the
PsychoNauts of Tomorrow in the Hopes That They To
Shall Achieve
SphereMastery of The Heavenly Firmament (Copyright 2005)

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

We've discussed this issue at the Forge before, and unfortunately I did not receive some help from the CBLDF that I was looking for, in order to learn how they started up their organization.

So! Yes, I'd like to see some substantive help and commentary on these issues:

Does anyone know of a pre-existing 501(3)(c) dedicated to the
Protection of the Civil Liberties of Game Designers? Is anyone
familiar with the process of setting up such a fund? Can anyone come
up with a better Name that creates a better Acronym than
RPG(C)LSD(F)....???

... but focusing on concrete knowledge, real-person contacts and consulting, and straightforward plans.

T'oma, it's nice to have you here, and welcome.

Best,
Ron

[T'oma]

Thanks, Ron, for the Warm Welcome!

I am gratified that this is not an entirely new topic (could you perchance give me a link back into threads dealing with this subject?  This might also reinitialize new discussion of this concept, a literary survey if you will)

We've discussed this issue at the Forge before, and unfortunately I did not receive some help from the CBLDF that I was looking for, in order to learn how they started up their organization.
So! Yes, I'd like to see some substantive help and commentary on these issues: <snip>
... but focusing on concrete knowledge, real-person contacts and consulting, and straightforward plans.

I actually have a few connections into CBLDF and can thus inquire if it is determined by the community that, Yes Indeed, this is something that should be pro-actively addressed.  I don't mind spear-heading the initiative as long as others would take administrative charge should it become Reality.  As disenchanted Ex-Military, I don't mind prophetically tilting at Giants of Bureaucracy, but I acknowledge I am too flighty to grind the Corn at the resulting WindMill...


T'oma

YuMe MiRu MoNo TaCHi MiNa SuKuWaReRu

[jerry]

I think it would be important to know what the hypothetical fund plans on doing.

The comic book  legal defense fund came about because of legal attempts to redefine comic art as pornography (mostly because "if it's a comic, it has to be for children"). They formed in response to a specific event. (Friendly Frank's, as I recall.)

They've also chosen to defend parody, satire, and fair use right, but their high-profile cases still appear to be fighting legal attempts to redefine comic art as pornography or as not art (c.f. Mavrides).

Certainly there are, or have been, some analogous things in the gaming community; in our case, however, much of them have come from other gaming businesses. Such things as trying to broadly redefine derivative works in copyright law and tightly restrict trademark usage (and even, at times, to try and conflate the two legally so as to gain copyright restrictions on trademark usage).

This sort of infighting is something the CBLDF generally does not have to deal with, at least not yet, and they are able to and have received funding from the larger comic book companies because of this.

In our case, though, I think that the attempts throughout the old-style industries to expand copyright and trademark are the biggest threat we face as independent creators; and while, certainly, there are enough non-gaming cases that the hypothetical fund could attach itself to, this would probably also put the fund at odds with its major sources of funding.

So what would the RPG LDF work for? What kind of cases would they accept?

Jerry

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Here's the older discussion: RPG hate issue: important. I took it quite far beyond the text discussion through phone calls and emails, but hit a brick wall a couple of months later.

As folks can see from that thread, my concern was not to wrangle over copyright, but rather to focus on outright abuse of employment, slander, threats to physical safety, and threats to freedom of speech. Speaking only as a fellow participant and not as thread-moderator, I tend to favor this emphasis still.

I am tremendously happy that the topic has resumed, and I want to encourage everyone to consider all of this very carefully. It's painfully clear to me that GAMA, for example, is incapable of addressing concerns at this level of importance. There really isn't anyone else, with the possible exception of CAR-PGA.

Best,
Ron

P.S. I consider all discussion of "what to call it" to be premature.

[T'oma]

Hiya,

Here's the older discussion: RPG hate issue: important. I took it quite far beyond the text discussion through phone calls and emails, but hit a brick wall a couple of months later.

Thanks Much!  I will catch up forth-with-

As folks can see from that thread, my concern was not to wrangle over copyright, but rather to focus on outright abuse of employment, slander, threats to physical safety, and threats to freedom of speech. Speaking only as a fellow participant and not as thread-moderator, I tend to favor this emphasis still.

I am in tacit agreement.

EFF was founded after the FBI raided the offices of, and siezed computers and files belonging to Steve Jackson, destroying years worth of Releases and effectively Bankrupting him.  CBLDF was founded after a Florida comic book artist had his entire studio (IIRC) confiscated, destroyed, and an Injunction issued against him forbidding him to _Draw_ in the State of Florida (!!).
  I am most concerned with some poor shmuck, such as the young feller quoted in my original post,  writing an 'edgy' Black Dog-like game (or module), and being arrested for suspected Terroristic Behaviour, and then being swallowed in Gulag.  It would seem far-fetched if it hadn't happened so many times already: even here in the States.  My concern is that, just as in the proceeding examples, this issue is going to take a Martyr before it is taken seriously..

Frankly:  I personally would be perfectly content if it remained a completely unfunded Symbolic Advocacy Group that relied on ProBono work from RP'ing Lawyers.  I believe the mere -existence- of such a group is a step in the right direction.

I am tremendously happy that the topic has resumed, and I want to encourage everyone to consider all of this very carefully.

Glad to be of Service to the Community (And on my First Post, Too!! :P )

It's painfully clear to me that GAMA, for example, is incapable of addressing concerns at this level of importance. There really isn't anyone else, with the possible exception of CAR-PGA.

As a general rule, I think issues of Funding are best left 'til this thing is a Reality (if at all), but having said that:
I would suspect funding might be solicited from SJ (almost a given) and White Wolf (they are large enough to benefit from the Tax Benefits of Charity but still small and 'edgy' enough to both understand the need for such an entity and not have it Vetoed by Corporate-Think.  I suspect a Block Grant might be possible under the auspices of the ACLU, but that is a guess.  Certainly Funding is availble as needed, even if we have to hold Country Wide Bake Sales (or sponsored 24 hour Marathon Game Sessions)
Changing subjects:  
I personally would have no objection to Individuals applying for Loans or Grants for legal assistance in regards to Larger Corporate excesses vice Government (WOTC, fer example, IMO is at the edge of Scariness...the D20 licensing arrangement feels like a Ticking Bomb to me.  But I'm Paranoid :D)
--->The effort required to filter out Frivlousness boggles, however<---.
 It is probably better to concentrate pro-actively on 'Big Picture' issues, and leave  (relatively) Petty Legal Concerns to individual effort.  However: Members would probably be amenable to a Peer in trouble, I suspect.

As I said earlier: My concern is that this issue is going to take a Martyr before it is taken seriously.

P.S. I consider all discussion of "what to call it" to be premature.

Even though it was meant as levity to lighten a very heavy topic, I will politely disagree: IMO having a memonic tag to encapsulate a concept allows it to gain 'critical mass' understanding faster.  My Acronym was meant to reflect an old saw that goes something like: "Who needs Drugs, I've got GAMES!" thus:

RPG(C)-LSD(F)

would decode Pun-nily as "RPG? SI!  LSD?  F-(K NO)!


T'oma

YuMe MiRu MoNo TaCHi MiNa SuKuWaReRu

"Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set every threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!"
          ---Oliver Wendell Holmes

[jerry]

As folks can see from that thread, my concern was not to wrangle over copyright, but rather to focus on outright abuse of employment, slander, threats to physical safety, and threats to freedom of speech. Speaking only as a fellow participant and not as thread-moderator, I tend to favor this emphasis still.

That's a great idea, but it is quite a bit different than the counterpart to the CBLDF that was suggested at the head of this thread.

By necessity, it would have a very different focus and a very different kind of work load. Due to "at will" work laws, it would have to be very much an advocacy organization and an advertising organization, I suspect.

It would have to be able to draw public pressure to bear in ways that CBLDF-like organizations do not have to do, since in cases of firings there is no legal recourse, there is only persuasion and/or public embarassment.

I'm not even sure what a good counterpart organization would be.

Jerry

[T'oma]

After having reviewed the salient Background ( RPG hate issue: important.) I find that my conceptual model has narrowed a little bit as pertaining to what may actually be needed.  The previously thread-listed Advocacy groups exist to handle a lot of the issues presented as possible functions of a New Organization.  I suspect that a New Organizations role would be easiest, and perhaps best, defined as an Advocacy group distributing -information- , intent on making sure affected individuals are put in contact with existing groups pertinent to their situations.
    As such, I wonder if it would be possible to get the CBLDF to recognize RPG's and their creators as involved in creating a sub-set of _their_ ArtForm: enough similairities exist to at least posit such a definition for legal terms (...individual artists involved in creating a potentially marketable Art Product combining Visual and Textual components...   IMO the boundaries are already quite blurry with the advent of WebComics and the respective self-publishing boon in both Arts.
Overall, we are more similair than different in this regard (ie to the goals of the CBLDF), and I begin to wonder if it is truly necessary to re-invent the wheel when we can merely add an axle..

Thoughts?

T'oma

YuMe MiRu MoNo TaCHi MiNa SuKuWaReRu.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi T'oma,

I agree with you about functions of the endeavor, especially since that goal is modest and concrete enough to be realistic, as well as genuinely useful right out of the gate.

If you or anyone you know can make contact with the CBLDF about this, that would be wonderful. However, I suggest that the goals can be met even if they say no or are otherwise uninterested in helping directly.

Best,
Ron

[Sean]

One question: would the existence of such a fund create a 'target'? Is there any reason to suppose that, knowing that there was a fund set up to protect designers, more people might try to bring suit against designers?


T'oma wrote: "Given the Cultural Retraction that has been happening since the Mid-80's regarding [first] Amendment issues (but admittedly in response to the overly self-indulgent expansiveness in the '60's and '70's)"

We should probably take this up via PM or in a different thread if you want to discuss it, but this clause bothers me a lot. What increased freedom of speech rights earned during the liberation movements of the sixties and seventies do you regard as 'overly self-indulgent'? Which interpretations of the first amendment that got established during that time do you regard as inappropriate? And how do you differentiate a game like Kill Puppies for Satan or a supplement like Sex and Sorcery from expressions of the putatively inappropriate variety?

[jerry]

One question: would the existence of such a fund create a 'target'? Is there any reason to suppose that, knowing that there was a fund set up to protect designers, more people might try to bring suit against designers?

It's hard to say how any individual would react, but conventional wisdom is that the opposite occurs: knowing that there is a comic book legal defense fund, for example, means that comic book retailers are no seen as an easy target.

A fund makes suits and arrests more likely to go to trial rather than for the defendant to compromise to less than what they're entitled to. This is generally not what plaintiffs and prosecutors want. They want settlements and plea bargains.

Jerry

[T'oma]

I agree with you about functions of the endeavor, especially since that goal is modest and concrete enough to be realistic, as well as genuinely useful right out of the gate.

After more thought (and given the relative lack of enthusiastic support by the Masses) would it be presumptious of me to suggest that the Forge itself assume the mantle of this responsibility?  It has the name recognition and peer credibility alredy established to be able to fulfill the (relatively modest) final set of Goals.  It merely requires that the additionall step of acknowledging this as an Active Role on the Forge' s Mission Statement, and it is fete accompli.  
Is this likely, or even possible, Ron?

If you or anyone you know can make contact with the CBLDF about this, that would be wonderful. However, I suggest that the goals can be met even if they say no or are otherwise uninterested in helping directly.

I'll be meeting with the CBLDF at AggieCon, if not sooner.  More to come-

Best

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I'd like some group of people to address the issue in a concrete way. The Forge seems like a good candidate as a locale for their interactions, which is what I was driving at in the earlier thread. I would like to be one of those people, too, if I could be useful.

But the Forge, itself, is not an organization and not a company. It has no financial or any other sort of standing; for example, the "Forge booths" which are now springing up at various cons have to be registered by one or more of the companies - it is not itself even an imprint. It's just a website.

So ... basically, what you're suggesting is what we're already doing, right here in this thread! All that matters now is concrete effort, and your commitment to approach the issue with the CBDLF is an excellent example.

Best,
Ron

[T'oma]

But the Forge, itself, is not an organization and not a company. It has no financial or any other sort of standing; for example, the "Forge booths" which are now springing up at various cons have to be registered by one or more of the companies - it is not itself even an imprint. It's just a website.

....up until this point at least.....

The Evolution of Social Structures in the Age of Complexity requires a 'strange attractor' (to borrow the mathematical term) and I would hazard that we are all pretty 'strange' around here :P

It seemed apprapos to suggest at this in that I have heard rumours that the Forge was considering 'shutting its doors' as its current Mission Statement has been accomplished.  It seemed to me to be a better Decision to Evolve rather than Die.

...Especially because "hundredth monkey" critical mass community acceptance has already happened.  

"For Lack Of Vision, My Peoplke Perish"

It'll happen in either case though: even if only you and I promulgate it.

excuse me:  " I and Thou "  (don't you love Buber...?  :P )