Trollbabe print?

[Matt Snyder]

Yeah, Ron, I don't consider it a failure, either. Just that it can be improved.


Ok, parceling ...

Open an art book. Any page. Any order. You get what you need out of it. One page-spread alone is enough to walk away with an interest in the artist. You browse, you wonder. It's non-linear. It's also not especially interactive. That is, there isn't anything you do with the book besides stare and drool.

You probably want the same process to happen in Trollbabe to LURE people.

Now, you rightly bring up essays in art books. Good point. That absolutely compares to the Trollbabe text, although I'm less certain each essay compares to the whole of the TB text (maybe to a chapter-like division).

My point is that to really use Trollbabe, "interactively" you should read the text through. And, that's a different process than opening to page 42, then flipping to that awesome chick-on-dinosaur picture, maybe reading an essay or whatever. Then, coming back to the book 3 weeks later after turning off the TV.

So, how do you design for that? How do you design the layout so that, say, The Girlfriend browses it three or four times. And THEN she likes it enough that she reads the damn thing.

How, for example, can you do it so that page 42 (or whatever page) has a small parcel of text that really grabs her and says "Geez! I should read this whole thing. That paragraph explanation was really interesting. I always loved that picture, now I see it has all this other stuff related to it!"

In design, those are called entry points. They are things designers do to grab a reader into the content. Pull quotes do that. Illustrations can. Large "drop capitals" do that. Cutlines do that. Etc.

Making any sense?

[Bankuei]

Hi Matt,

I've really thought about that sort of layout/design myself a bit.  As someone with 3 shelves of artbooks, I'd say:

-Art on every page, or at least visible between any 2 page spread
-Short, well broken up sections.  Everything on a particular topic should be on the same 2 page spread.
-Color is expensive, but it is a (big) plus.  A more reasonable price option might be a duotone instead of full color.

Some good potential examples of high art + text:

The School Book of Sorcerers' Apprentice, Katherine Quenot Civiello

-A Heavy Metal Book that reads like a lite encyclopedia of magic, with lots of beatiful artwork. The artwork also tends to break up the text and never lets it fall into the monotony of columns.

Yolk Magazine

-Basically a fashion magazine aimed at asians, but like all fashion magazines you have text interspersed with, or on top of imagery, lots of bright colors, and "pop" to every page.

Chris

[Eero Tuovinen]

I understand totally what Matt's saying about layout for casual reading, but the question is, how relevant is that now? That kind of layout won't happen with any old text, the whole material has to be worked into overlapping partial vignette form.

The point is, it's up to Ron to decide if he's going to make that investment (in his own time or other's). Unless he's willing to rethink the whole structure of the book, it's not wise to plan for a real art book layout. (The optimal requirements, as I see it, would have the book taking 30%-50% more pages and at least 20% more text compared to a linear deal, when you take into account the white space, art, increased examples and greatly increased redundancy. I'm not talking cut-and-paste changes here.) It's a completely different writing paradigm compared to a linear engineering manual, which Trollbabe currently resembles more (in structure, not style). Better to work towards something more linear, perhaps.

And I agree with Ron, the current layout is good. Very good. It has everything you could expect when the text still is written for zero redundancy and linear chapters. (I'd perhaps handled the examples a little differently, but that's peanuts.) In that regard there's no pressure at all.

But anyway, great to hear that Trollbabe's coming in book form. I'll try to make some time for playing it at some point. Perhaps after the HQ adventure we have going. Or perhaps I could go harass some high school girls for a game...

[Ron Edwards]

Um.

Well, as long as we're talking about this, maybe I should clarify what I mean by "art book." Back in the 1970s, you could buy art books about people like Chris Achilleos or Frank Frazetta, or sometimes a group of such artists. They were almost always perfect-bound paperbacks, about the size of a smallish standard-size RPG, what most comics people would think of as a typically-sized graphic novel.

There were full-page spreads ("plates"), and lots of black-and-white half-pages sharing space with text. Because there was a lot of text; these were books, not albums. Interviews, perspectives, essays, sometimes poems, all kinds of text.

Matt actually came pretty close to this with his PDF layout. I'm inclined, Matt, to have you really kick out the jams with a new version for the book, especially with a larger font and lots and lots more pictures.

So, yes, more text (with examples, Eero; your posts from last year are not forgotten), and a hell of a lot more art. I also think a better lead-in might be a good idea, as well as selected comic strip stories. The ones with interpretable endings, just so Ralph and Jesse don't start steam-kettling at me.

Best,
Ron

[Sean]

Hi Ron -

I regard Trollbabe as the product on the Forge with far and away the most mass-market potential. What I would do with it may curdle your stomach, though. I would get cutie, glitzy art and market the thing at 12 year old girls. Or actually market it at 16 year old girls so that twelve year old girls will buy it.

In other words, it's the successful D&D and Vampire strategy: sell that fucker as gear. Get someone who knows how to write for young people to edit it for you and get hollywood cartoon style art, or actually a slightly weird, offbeat version of hollywood cartoon style art. James West might be a good choice in terms of the local crew.

The thing is, the system is simple enough, and the story focus strong enough, that the 'gear' would have good potential to actually get played as a game.

I think the window for this is fairly narrow - there's a 'Trollz' cartoon coming out this spring (www.trollz.com) that aims at a similar market, so the aesthetic will probably be lame again in 2-3 years - but I think if you struck while the iron was hot and got this thing into Borders, Wal-mart, and Toys-R-Us you could be making a fat load of change. Which would allow you to fulfill your lifelong dream of visiting me in Michigan and training me to run Sorcerer better.

Take care,

Sean

[ejh]

Ron:  So you're thinking like the Paper Tiger books?  Those rocked.  I owned a number of those back in college when I thought I was going to be an illustrator, before I gave up and decided I'd be a Latin professor, and then switched course from that to information technology & programming, and then started thinking about closing the circle again and going back to illustration.

Paper Tiger is still going strong after all these years...

http://www.papertiger.co.uk/imprint/papertiger/index.jsp

http://www.unicorngarden.com/ptbks1.htm

[quozl]

I suggest including the Trollbabe comics with annotations in the book too.

[Tony Irwin]

As well as working closely with specific, paid, talented, real artists will you be opening the door to art donations like Clinton did with Donjon and TSOY?

Our trollbabes really captured my imagination in play. I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd like try a few drawings and cross my fingers for luck that one of them might just "work" when it comes time for your final layout.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Tony,

YES. I've always tried hard for my games to represent inspiration and break-in for artists, not just expert workhorses.

Trollbabe is perfectly suited for art from the heart, and I'd like that to be apparent in this book.

Best,
Ron

[ejh]

Clinton opened the door to art donations?

Can you point me to that thread?  I was going to ask Clinton something about that and it sounds like I may have just missed out on something already being mentioned...

[Tony Irwin]

Clinton opened the door to art donations?

Can you point me to that thread?  I was going to ask Clinton something about that and it sounds like I may have just missed out on something already being mentioned...

Yeah of course, its here

[Christopher Weeks]

What are the chances that it will have any of: hard cover, glossy pages, interior color art, art that crosses two-page spread, pages captioned along the lines of TSoY?

I really do like the idea of either having every two-page spread contain art and text in a self-contained module or made up of titled essays of some kind.  I'd have more direct suggestions if I could find my damn copy of the game.

And have you thought any more about the investor perspective?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

No hard cover. Glossy pages cost too fucking much. I might have the covers be real glossy.

Interior color art? Probably not. Two-page spreads? Absolutely. Everything you're saying about the essay or topic-based association of words and art is very much on-track with my plans.

I'm a big believer in meaningful captioning ... please see the Sorcerer books, for example, which I think feature the most useful captioning in all role-playing texts. The Trollbabe book should be equally navigable.

Best,
Ron

[Larry L.]

What about size? I guess when I think artbook I think squarish. Does an odd page size (like 8"x 8") really drive up the cost?

Presently, my Platonic ideal for a RPG cum coffee-table "hey look at me" book resembles Nobilis 2e.

Something resembling a hip graphic novel would probably be good too, if this square book thing is impractical.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Funny sizes cost money. I pay a lot extra for the Sorcerer dimensions, for example.  I'd really like the Trollbabe size to be one step up from standard, but I'm not sure I can afford that. This is supposed to be a painless project ...

Don't start me on Nobilis 2nd edition. This is not the same kind of project. My plan for Trollbabe is very much more in the Paper Tiger model, insofar as I can get away with it using white pages.

(Cue ninety PMs asking "what wrong with Nobilis 2e?" Drop it, guys. We're talking about Trollbabe.)

Best,
Ron