SF Space Monopoly

[signoftheserpent]

I want to create a SF setting where - like Dune - there is a monopoly on space travel. I want this concept because it opens a lot of interesting ideas that aren't there when you have a setting where people can fly around wherever and whenever. However I want to do this without the use of performance enhancing drugs! Thus I came up with a 'spacing guild' of my own who have the monpoly because they have all the astrogation data - only they know where everything is. Consequently everyone has to rely on them; they have their own culture and their own vehicles and do all the travel for basically everyone. My question really is how feasible is this; what are the pitfalls with this logic and this concept and how could it really work (if at all). There is no spice/oil monopoly or psychic power involved (although I did think that the 'guildsmen' had this data hardwired into their brains in a foolproof way so that the data could be safely monpolised without relying on storing it in a machine or something). Thanks.

[Matt Wilson]

Since apparently even human genes can be patented, maybe there's a conglomerate that holds the patent for astrogation data. Ships have to verify that they have a representative on board, or some sort of license or whatever, or they'll be totally screwed.

Then you could have rogue, black-market astrogators and stuff.

[Ben Lehman]

You're curious about the feasability of this, in a scientific sense?

In the real world, anyone with enough time and a telescope can take pretty damn accurate astrogation data.  That said, it isn't that hard to astrogate -- you should be way more worried about not hitting anything at all than hitting something you don't want to hit.  (All that SF stuff about "running into a star?"  It is way more dangerous to go spinning out into the void.  But I digress.)

The thing is, I imagine that your setting has a serious fantasy element -- faster than light travel.  So, in that case, there could be any number of sources of the monopoly -- data about navigation of "hyperspace," the technology of the FTL engine (which could be 'blackboxed') etc.  Really, the sky's the limit!  You get to decide how FTL works, anyway.

yrs--
--Ben

[Simon Kamber]

I don't think it sounds unfeasible at all. If you include a few rogue space travel agencies who challenge the big one, without noteworthy success, you're getting pretty close to some things that are happening already today, say, in the software business. And space travel seems like it could only be EASIER to gain a monopoly on, considering the costs involved.

[signoftheserpent]

Well of course there is a fantasy element to some degree, but the setting while not hard sf (i dont know hard science) is not a complete flight of fantasy.
My initial idea was to have the guildsmen have the data hardwired into them in a manner similar to Johnny Mnemonic (the book not the film) where data is stored subconsciously so the guildsman has to undergo some means to access it consciously and actually do the job. This just seemed bizarre, like drink driving in a way! However i preferred something like this than how Fading Suns, for example, which,because it relies on machinery (jumpkeys ot open jumpgates) seemed wholly fallible. After all if the monpoly relies on guildsman carrying around 'keys' in some fashion (be it astrogation black boxes or car keys) then that cannot be sustainable, surely. Plus it doesn't really appeal to my sensibilities. While the navigators of Dune aren't really playable characters (IMO - they are hardly Han Solo types) there is something engaging about the mystical elements of the prescient powers they posess.

I guess I could have petrol sniffing pilots!

[Sydney Freedberg]

If you want a robust monopoly -- one that isn't dependent on keeping one secret and falls apart when that secret gets out -- then you need to consider what makes real-world monopolies like Microsoft, power companies, and the old AT&T work, which is (besides regulation) economies of scale and high barriers to market entry: Sure, anyone can try to set up a rival software company or phone system or power distribution network, but (a) it's expensive to get started and (b) once everybody already has one common system from the monopolist, why would anybody risk buying a potential incompatible system that won't plug in to the rest of the network?

So while mapping space is indeed something anybody with a telescope and some math skills could try, why'd you buy Telescope Guy's observations when Giant Space Monopoly offers you data from a thousand survey ships? Telescope Guy may be smarter and cheaper, but there's no way he can have the same coverage. Likewise, while maybe anybody could potentially pilot an FTL ship, if they're expensive to build and operate, then it's very hard for any upstart competitor to offer reliable, affordable service.

[signoftheserpent]

I'm tempted to combine it with ideas  based on the old Hanseatic League, whereby merchants from across the galaxy - members of various houses/governments - form a mutual support and assitance group with a common goal. They then dominate trade acorss the stars in the traditional way and as a result include many skilled xplorers/navigators and merchants under their wing building their monopoly. Because they travel the most they get the most accurate data - and because they have strong mercantile interests they can enforce their monopoly by strangling trade and trade routes. Of course they can secede from the Imperium and call themselves the Trade Federation - or at least, like Herbert's Spacing Guild, form a force that can independently rival and thus keep in check the Imperium.

Besides every game needs a merchant guild (where would Exalted be without their mysterious 'guild'?).

BTW: does anyone know what 'Combine Honer Ober Advancer Mercantiles' actually means? I know what CHOAM is meant to do (and indeed represent), but those words are baffling me.

[Kedamono]

If you want a robust monopoly -- one that isn't dependent on keeping one secret and falls apart when that secret gets out -- then you need to consider what makes real-world monopolies like Microsoft, power companies, and the old AT&T work, which is (besides regulation) economies of scale and high barriers to market entry: Sure, anyone can try to set up a rival software company or phone system or power distribution network, but (a) it's expensive to get started and (b) once everybody already has one common system from the monopolist, why would anybody risk buying a potential incompatible system that won't plug in to the rest of the network?

One way of insuring a monopoly in this setting is to use something like Jumpgates: Big, massive, take years to build, built in pairs between stars, with the additional limitation that there can only be one connection between any two stars.

These gates are big enough that no small company or corporation could afford to build one. And since there can only be one connection, once a jumpgate is in place, no matter how small it is, another cannot be setup. This can lead to one or two monopolies, at least until the two realize that they can make more money as one monopoly.

[Simon Kamber]

You wouldn't even need the limitation of only one jumpgate between any two systems. The mere fact that a new player on the market has no chance in hell to regain his investment is enough to secure monopoly.

[signoftheserpent]

Ok, so I have a monopoly; a League that accompishes what I want it to. My next question is how does this group, with the monopoly (ie power) it thus has, work alongside the conventional society - the Imperium (a spacefaring empire). How can the two co exist - if at all? And if not what happens? Surely such a League, like the Spacing Guild, would overtake the Imperium (certainly in the movie version, the Guild even bullies the Emperor!) and put itself in charge. I don't want that, but I do like the idea of a League that exists somewhat independently because i think that offers gaming opportunities.

[Andrew Cooper]

Well, the Imperium has the guns.  Sure, the Guild has Jumpgates (or technology) but if the Imperium decides to get all irritated and begins blockading the end points of travel or otherwise causing a ruckus, then that puts a dent in the Guild's profits.  The Guild isn't going to like that and they aren't going to want to compete with the Imperium in this arena because they are at a disadvantage.  You see, the Imperium doesn't care if it doesn't make a profit.

[signoftheserpent]

Well, the Imperium has the guns.  

That was about the only thing i could come up with; i decided that the imperium had forced the league to a concession in that it itself couldn't take up arms as an aggressor. Not sure how realistic that is, nor how realistic it is for the Imperium, without the League, to survive. Could it? I've no experience of running empires so i don't really know what's realistic or not.

[gorckat]

what if it's set up so that the spacers/pilots/whatever you call them have the knowledge, but as an organization/guild, lack the actual access to resources to construct the ships?

the guild will then be available for hire by anyone with ships or ability to construct them, but neither side is able to overpower the other-

spacer bolts with ship, well, no one else gets work until he returns the ship or is brought to justice.  

spacer gets kidnapped so company/gov't can puree his brain and make him spill the secrets to jumping- no spacers will fly for that group

could create an uneasy balance that can provide adventure opps.  conflict between the groups would likely lead to all sorts of economic upheaval and even riots, so neither side would want to upset the balance

[daMoose_Neo]

I suggest reading a bit more of the Dune books if you want to understand whats going on with Herbert's scheme-
The Guild and the Empire have a tedious relationship. The Emperor, and the family controlling Arrakis, controls the flow of spice. Without spice, there is no space travel. Spice can't be meaningfully harvested, however, without swift space travel as provided by the Guild.
Brian Herbert's prequels are showing us more of life before spice: space travel is extremely limited, takes weeks to get from one point to another, the precient Navigators haven't even come into play, experiments on Guild-like travel are few and dangerous. We're also seeing the foundation of what would become the universe dependant on spice.
Basically, each leg of the three ruling bodies of the universe has one leg up on the others, and it ties back to the flow of spice. Each group knows it can push the others to certain limits, further if they have them over a barrel somehow. But, they know when they've pushed too far. Not to mention various laws and other such observences overpower all bodies to the point that if one of the major bodies broke it, the other two bodies would retaliate swiftly and decisively.

[signoftheserpent]

I suggest reading a bit more of the Dune books if you want to understand whats going on with Herbert's scheme-
The Guild and the Empire have a tedious relationship. The Emperor, and the family controlling Arrakis, controls the flow of spice. Without spice, there is no space travel. Spice can't be meaningfully harvested, however, without swift space travel as provided by the Guild.
Brian Herbert's prequels are showing us more of life before spice: space travel is extremely limited, takes weeks to get from one point to another, the precient Navigators haven't even come into play, experiments on Guild-like travel are few and dangerous. We're also seeing the foundation of what would become the universe dependant on spice.
Basically, each leg of the three ruling bodies of the universe has one leg up on the others, and it ties back to the flow of spice. Each group knows it can push the others to certain limits, further if they have them over a barrel somehow. But, they know when they've pushed too far. Not to mention various laws and other such observences overpower all bodies to the point that if one of the major bodies broke it, the other two bodies would retaliate swiftly and decisively.

Yes, I've come to understand more of the relationships in DUne from the Chronicles of the Imperium rpg whihc, despite being contradicted in places by herbert jr and Anderson, does a good job of explaining the tripartie relationship between CHOAM, guild and empire. However that model my be too restrictive for an rpg (certainly playing a navigator isn't that much fun - check for traps then breathe spice all day).

The idea of removing the League's own ships is an interesting one. I thought of that myself as well (aren't i clever). There would be the League with its astrogation codex and the Imperium with the ships (and guns): both need the other. This means that the League cannot fly ships of its own (or at least manufacture them*, which might sem more amicable) - however it has the monopoly on astrogation tools, astrolabes that contain their data (as well as transmitting/receiving updates to and from the League). The Imperium on the other hand cannot make the astrolabes (or at least nothing as comparable or accurate) and must provide the League with any and all astrogation data it finds, in turn it controls the industries supplying the League with goods for trade - including the guns it can use against the League and the ships that the League need for their monopoly. This agreement, which can contain other things i imagine, we can call the Imperial Accord or the Treaty of the Stars (or something similarly bold and brazen).

Does seem convoluted though. Is it realistic? Am i worrying about realism too much? This setting doesn't revolve around a spice-type product so it can't really work in the same way (fortunately) as the world conceived by the mighty herbertmind.