Dark Ages HQ

[droog]

CULTURE

Briton
Occupations Available: Clergyman, Entertainer, Farmer, God-Talker, Healer, Housewife, Hunter, Merchant, Monk, Sailor, Thief, Warrior.
Native Abilities: Brythonic Customs, Geography of Britain, Healing Lore, Intrigue or Widerness Survival, Speak Brythonic or Speak Latin.
Men only – Sword and Shield Fighting.
Women only – Spinning and Weaving.
Typical Personality Traits: Melancholy, Hate [Saxons, Irish or Picts], Proud.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Clan, Tribe or City; to Leader.
Religion: Christian (Roman or Celtic) or Pagan.

Byzantine
Occupations Available: Cavalry Soldier, Clergyman, Entertainer, Foot Soldier, Healer, Merchant, Monk, Petty Noble, Sailor, Scholar, Thief.
Native Abilities: Byzantine Customs, Geography of the East, Debate Church Doctrine, Speak Latin, Speak Greek, Read and Write Latin, Urban Survival.
Typical Personality Traits: Argumentative, Conservative, Devious, Pious.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Political Faction, to Church; to Emperor.
Religion: Eastern Church.

Germanic
Occupations Available: Cavalry Soldier, Entertainer, Farmer, Foot Soldier, God-Talker, Healer, Housewife, Hunter, Merchant, Sailor, Spirit-Talker, Thief, Warrior.
Native Abilities: Boating or Riding, Geography of [Homeland], Germanic Customs, Large, Speak [Germanic Language].
Men only – [Weapon] Fighting.
Women only – Spinning and Weaving.
Typical Personality Traits: Fatalistic, Independent, Restless, Vengeful.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Leader.
Religion: Gods of Asgard (some Goths, and most Franks, are Christian).

Irish
Occupations Available: Clergyman, Druid, Entertainer, Farmer, Healer, Housewife, Hunter, Monk, Warrior.
Native Abilities: Geography of Ireland, Gift of the Gab, Healing Lore, Irish Customs, Obey Druid, Speak Irish.
Men only – Sword and Shield Fighting.
Women only – Spinning and Weaving.
Typical Personality Traits: Fatalistic, Melancholy, Independent.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Tuath.
Religion: Christian (Celtic) or Pagan.

Pict
Occupations Available: Clergyman, Entertainer, Farmer, Healer, Housewife, Hunter, Monk, Sailor, Spirit-Talker, Warrior.
Native Abilities: Boating, Geography of the North, Leatherworking, Pictish Customs, Speak Pictish, Spear Fighting, Wilderness Survival, Work Stone and Wood.
Typical Personality Traits: Conservative, Matriarchal, Pious, Stoic, Suspicious.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Clan
Religion: Tree of Life Tradition.

Roman
Occupations Available: Cavalry Soldier, Clergyman, Entertainer, Farmer, Foot Soldier, God-Talker, Healer, Merchant, Monk, Petty Noble, Sailor, Scholar, Thief.
Native Abilities: Geography of [Homeland], Politics, Speak Latin, Read Latin, Roman Customs, Urban Survival.
Typical Personality Traits: Conservative, Devious, Sophisticated, Pragmatic, Proud.
Typical Relationships: to Family; to Church; to Emperor.
Religion: Christian; rarely Judaic or Pagan.

[droog]

RELIGION

Celtic Church
Abilities: Dance, Member of [Congregation], See Presence of God, Sing, Stories of the Saints, Worship Immanent God.
Virtues: Energetic, Generous, Independent, Love God, Merciful, Open-Minded, Responsible.

The Old Gods
Abilities: Dance, Know Local Place of Power, Member of [Circle, Coven or Community], Mythology of the Old Gods, Worship Old Gods.
Virtues: Energetic, Generous, Honest, Sensual, Proud.

The Gods of Asgard
Abilities: Germanic Mythology, Member of [Community], Perform Household Ritual, Recite Lineage, Worship Gods of Asgard.
Virtues: Bloodthirsty, Brave, Defiant, Fatalistic, Honourable, Reckless.

Judaism
Abilities: Debate, History of the Israelites, Mosaic Law, Member of [Synagogue], [Philosophy], Read Hebrew, Worship One God.
Virtues: Chaste, Energetic, Exclusive, Lawful, Temperate.

Tree of Life Tradition
Abilities: Tree of Life Tradition Knowledge, Ecstatic Dancing, Know Local Nature Spirits, Member of [Spiritist Community], Worship the Tree of Life.
Virtues: Dutiful, Harmonious, Honest, Proud, Wise.

Roman Church
Abilities: Member of [Congregation], Recite Prayer, Roman CHurch Doctrine, Sing Hymn, Understand Symbol, Worship Holy Trinity.
Virtues: Chaste, Fear God, Forgiving, Humble, Merciful, Obedient, Temperate.






As you can see, it's all slanted heavily towards Britain. So, of course, the first player is making up a Persian noble.

[Mike Holmes]

As you can see, it's all slanted heavily towards Britain. So, of course, the first player is making up a Persian noble.

That's players for ya! ;-)

Druids as an occupation? I would have thought them just practitioners of a Celtic animist tradition (they even have the personality trait of "fey"). Spirit-Talkers, essentially, if they were occupationally involved. Is the "Celtic Church" animist? Certainly doesn't look that way. Or do the Druids worship the "tree of life" (is it an oak)?

Obviously Judaism, and the Roman church are Wizardry (with Islam coming soon to an Arabian nation near you!). The Old Gods are a pantheon, I take it? Of beings that predate the Germanic Gods? Hmm. Were these actually sacrificed to? Or were these beings worshipped with ecstatic ritual?

Mike

[Mandacaru]

Mike's post makes me think - A big theme around that time, and also with the colonization of the Americas, was syncretism. This is what I would have as the basis for a game if I set it somewhere brand new. If you do have animism and theism, say, you can have a whole load of things going on there. Not sure how the Persian fits in, mind. Zoroastrian is he?

Sam.

[Mike Holmes]

Syncretism is something near and dear to me with this. There seems to be a few ways of handling this.

I think that what the rules are intended to support - and I've put some substantial effort into trying to figure this out - is that syncretism is found in terms of specific religions. That is, you don't take B magic keyword from X religion, and B keyword from Religion Y. At least not often (experimental Hero Quests might allow this). Instead, the religion is already extant, the syncretism has already happened, and it offers you the magic keywords from what were previously different religions.

So, for the classic (though somewhat OT) example of religion in England at the time of Robin Hood, the Christianity of the time was apparently forced to accept certain of the pagan Celtic beliefs as part of the religion. The two had melded into one at the time, and the pagan beliefs were slowly on their way out.

Now, what about a country truely in the throws of two competing religions? Well, what I'd suggest is that the "reality" of the gods and such is that they are mutually exclusive, and you can't get magic from both. You can pretend to be in another religion, but you can only "really" be in one. Again, in this case if you want the religion to be truely syncretic, then you'll have to be the one to do the Hero Quests to meld the myths to make it one religion.

Mike

[Mandacaru]

Mike:

Now, what about a country truely in the throws of two competing religions? Well, what I'd suggest is that the "reality" of the gods and such is that they are mutually exclusive, and you can't get magic from both. You can pretend to be in another religion, but you can only "really" be in one. Again, in this case if you want the religion to be truely syncretic, then you'll have to be the one to do the Hero Quests to meld the myths to make it one religion.

It's a problem in any world where the magic is commonplace and tangible as in Glorantha. It requires a world where the power of the gods is translated to the world in rarer or more subtle ways. Anyway, I'll stop this as it might be straying too far OT. I like the keywords.

Sam.

[droog]

As you can see, it's all slanted heavily towards Britain. So, of course, the first player is making up a Persian noble.

Druids as an occupation? I would have thought them just practitioners of a Celtic animist tradition (they even have the personality trait of "fey"). Spirit-Talkers, essentially, if they were occupationally involved. Is the "Celtic Church" animist? Certainly doesn't look that way. Or do the Druids worship the "tree of life" (is it an oak)?

Obviously Judaism, and the Roman church are Wizardry (with Islam coming soon to an Arabian nation near you!). The Old Gods are a pantheon, I take it? Of beings that predate the Germanic Gods? Hmm. Were these actually sacrificed to? Or were these beings worshipped with ecstatic ritual?

We don't have a lot of information about the druids and their religion, so I leant heavily on Pendragon. I've made various unwarranted assumptions.

The Celtic Church is basically the insular British christianity, heavily influenced by paganism and Pelagianism. During this time it was still in conflict with the Roman church over basic points of doctrine.

The Old Gods are my name for 'paganism' in general. This includes the ancient Celtic gods as well as imported cults like Isis or Mithras. You raise an interesting point about these deities predating the Asgardian gods--perhaps some are survivals of the most ancient European (pre-Indo-European?) religions. The druids, then, are the administrators of sacrifices and keepers of law (god-talkers for a specific religion). I do have reservations about treating them as an occupation, but I figured that starting characters will essentially be apprentice druids (twenty-year apprenticeships). They have the status, but not the skills.

The Tree of Life is the Pictish animist tradition (direct steal from Beyond the Wall. Yes, it's an oak. I'm trying to suggest some sort of deep, half-remembered connections between this most ancient tradition, the later pagan gods, and the Celtic church.




On the question of magic, my default position was that there is no overt magic. I think that the religious keywords will still have significance due to relationships and attitudes. People will still be able to augment with eg Worship in appropriate circumstances. Maybe they can ask for Divine Aid.

But I'm now seeing a dial in front of the players, with 'no magic at all' at one extreme, and 'full magic system' at the other. Can this work?

[droog]

Not sure how the Persian fits in, mind. Zoroastrian is he?

Yes, Zoroastrian or possibly Nestorian Christian. More keywords....

I would like to see the discussion you mention on syncretism and tangible magic. Would you mind starting a thread?

[Mike Holmes]

First, after doing some reading, I withdraw my objection to having Druids as an occupation. They are, essentially priests, but different enough in small ways from the listed priest occupation (for example, in terms of class, and their oral traditions), that it probably merits a new keyword.

The Celtic Church is basically the insular British christianity, heavily influenced by paganism and Pelagianism. During this time it was still in conflict with the Roman church over basic points of doctrine.

Well, we're talking 5th century here? The Roman doctrine wasn't really in force at all. You have St. Patrick taking Christianity to the druids of Ireland throughout the century, but even that's not considered Roman Christianity per se, just his own personal vision. The Roman link doesn't arrive, technically, until St. Augustine arrives in the sixth century. Before then, Christianity in the British Isles has only very sporadic contact with the Roman church, and mostly through the emperor.

But I get what you're saying. It's the period before Rome put their foot down with Augustine, where things were really mixed up. The thing is that even after Augustine, pagan beliefs would continue to be a part of things until (as I mentioned) the legends surrounding Robin Hood in the 13th century - and that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. They may have lasted later.

But, yeah, if you want the time period where they're two separate religions trying to figure out how to work together, then the fifth century is it.

The Old Gods are my name for 'paganism' in general. This includes the ancient Celtic gods as well as imported cults like Isis or Mithras. You raise an interesting point about these deities predating the Asgardian gods--perhaps some are survivals of the most ancient European (pre-Indo-European?) religions. The druids, then, are the administrators of sacrifices and keepers of law (god-talkers for a specific religion).

OK, that makes sense. As long as the gods in question are strongly linked to the Celtic traditions of the isles which largely steal from...

The Tree of Life is the Pictish animist tradition (direct steal from Beyond the Wall. Yes, it's an oak. I'm trying to suggest some sort of deep, half-remembered connections between this most ancient tradition, the later pagan gods, and the Celtic church.

That makes sense.

On the question of magic, my default position was that there is no overt magic. I think that the religious keywords will still have significance due to relationships and attitudes. People will still be able to augment with eg Worship in appropriate circumstances. Maybe they can ask for Divine Aid.

Hmm. Interesting. Basically you don't want flashy Gloranthan magic? Is that it? Because I'm sure that the druids thought that they were doing magic. That is, there are two reasons for keeping magic in the game. First, even if magic isn't real, people think it is. That's a powerful force. Second, maybe magic is real (we can debate this elsewhere if you like). In either case, the best way to simulate this is to allow magic to functionally exist in the world in question. Whether or not it's actually magical is a subjective question that doesn't have to be answered.

The only thing you have to do in order to keep it plausible, is to make sure that the magic taken matches the sorts of magic performed historically. Which means, probably, less light show than Gloranthan magic describes in cases that match miracles and such that have been recorded. If you want something really subjective, then take all magic as "passive" and only allow it to augment. At which point the question becomes, "is it real, or is it just the character's belief propelling them on like any other personality trait?"

Mike

[droog]

But I get what you're saying. It's the period before Rome put their foot down with Augustine, where things were really mixed up. The thing is that even after Augustine, pagan beliefs would continue to be a part of things until (as I mentioned) the legends surrounding Robin Hood in the 13th century - and that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. They may have lasted later.

Well, radical Protestants such as Pentecostalists still accuse Catholics of being idol-worshippers.... Personally I think the pagan elements are still there plainly to be seen. After all, we celebrate Yule and the spring festival of Eostre.

I think that at the stage I intended to start, Rome has already sent Germanus to try and convince the Britons to get rid of their Pelagian beliefs. Historically Pelagianism seems to have lingered for a while, and it seems to me to make for interesting gaming if there's a doctrinal clash.

If you want something really subjective, then take all magic as "passive" and only allow it to augment. At which point the question becomes, "is it real, or is it just the character's belief propelling them on like any other personality trait?"

Yes, that's more or less how I was thinking of treating it. The characters could have various charms etc. Magical events will always have alternative explanations.

But I'm a bit torn, because there's also that whole Welsh tradition of weird and flashy magic (the man who can drink the sea dry etc); not to mention stories like the Emperor Justinian being able to remove his head and send it spying around the palace.

What I'm presently thinking is to treat magic entirely ad hoc, so the players can bring their own ideas to the table.

[droog]

Hmm. Interesting. Basically you don't want flashy Gloranthan magic? Is that it? Because I'm sure that the druids thought that they were doing magic. That is, there are two reasons for keeping magic in the game. First, even if magic isn't real, people think it is. That's a powerful force. Second, maybe magic is real (we can debate this elsewhere if you like). In either case, the best way to simulate this is to allow magic to functionally exist in the world in question. Whether or not it's actually magical is a subjective question that doesn't have to be answered.

I just wanted to note that I'm on the same page here. That is, if people believe, it is as powerful as if magic objectively exists. Whether it is, in fact, 'really real' is possibly not debatable. Possibly....

I want a sense of mystery about it, is the thing. I want that question to be possible, rather than: 'Oh sure, magic exists--watch this!' So I do think I need a subtlety to the way it works. Probably this can just come through the narration--do you think?

[Mandacaru]

I just wanted to note that I'm on the same page here. That is, if people believe, it is as powerful as if magic objectively exists. Whether it is, in fact, 'really real' is possibly not debatable. Possibly....

I want a sense of mystery about it, is the thing. I want that question to be possible, rather than: 'Oh sure, magic exists--watch this!' So I do think I need a subtlety to the way it works. Probably this can just come through the narration--do you think?

Bernard Cornwell does this very well in his Arthurian trilogy. He did have absolute narrative power when he wrote it, mind. The druids and Saxon wizards are always casting curses at the opposing shield walls, and these plainly operate on the minds of the recipients. Everyone knows it is terrible juju to kill a wizard. They know not to cross a skull fence (you could incorporate this as a contest against a character's own beliefs perhaps) until it has been deactivated by another wizard. The non-magicians know that they can bring down their god's curses on others or get their support. The healing, aside from coming at a price, remains as hard to pin down as alternative medicines today.

To my mind, the above you could incorporate mechanically by restricting it to augments, as with unconcentrated common magic. That allows you to blur the boundaries between magic and belief. If the players don't buy it, well that's their call.

Another thing is to slow the magic down. Emphasize the curses constructed in some dark cavern over two months, the effigies, the rituals, finding the witch on the hill to get a counter-curse. I have a Western (Glorantha) iconographer I have geared up to do this through painting. Not done yet but it has led to one woman hiding her face so as not to give him that purchase on her.

We all as players want to have the cool magic. And I think you are on to a great tack (sp?) if you can withhold that, keep the mystery and so defer their gratification so that something seemingly mundane in Glorantha becomes fantastic. Make sure you don't use any magic unless it is utterly rooted in the current direction of the game. A PC finds a lock of his hair has been taken in the night, a night when the locals say the thickest mist descended. A dependent falls inexplicably and incurably ill, backed up by a strange dream of a cloaked woman on a moor. Perhaps find a mechanic from elsewhere to bring in costs to the players' use of magic.

I suspect that you may need to be a bit ruthless with this to begin with, hide more die rolls than normal and so on. Perhaps take something from Horror games... Nathan Hill in Daedelus: http://www.chimera.info/daedalus/index.html

Those are just my impressions. never done it myself.
Sam.

EDIT: ...and also, make the results of magic tangible...the curse on the player, if not resisted by his/her Christian (ummm Zoroastrian?) piety, leaves a -10% 'wound', giving the player licence to incorporate that (as worry?) into his/her own narrative.

[Mike Holmes]

But I get what you're saying. It's the period before Rome put their foot down with Augustine, where things were really mixed up. The thing is that even after Augustine, pagan beliefs would continue to be a part of things until (as I mentioned) the legends surrounding Robin Hood in the 13th century - and that's just what I can remember off the top of my head. They may have lasted later.

Well, radical Protestants such as Pentecostalists still accuse Catholics of being idol-worshippers.... Personally I think the pagan elements are still there plainly to be seen. After all, we celebrate Yule and the spring festival of Eostre.

Pretty familiar being Roman Catholic myself. Easter Eggs, Christmas Trees, yadda, yadda. Yep, we know.

More telling about the long-lasting effects of syncretism, however, are the places where power comes from. To make the HQ parallel, which is easy since wizardry is pretty much based off of generic catholicism (but I repeat myself), some of the catholic saints are possibly based on legendary figures from other myths. Hard to say, since most records kept are from Catholic sources, which will claim that the individual actually lived, and was not created from another religion's myth.

But what I was talking about is that even at the stage of Richard in England, the syncretism in the Roman Church was still coalescing to the point that, instead of having converted the spirits and gods of the old religion to saints, some people were still using old pagan and animist practices. Again, to put it in HQ terms, the beings had been heroquested into the religion long ago, but they hadn't yet either been forced to switch otherworlds, or the religion had started to perform misapplied worship on them.

I think we see a long-term evolution here.
1. Religions end up together in the same area. One can worship one or the other.
2. Religions start to co-opt beings, one from the other. It starts to be true that you can worship in a religion that has some beings that were formerly of the other religion.
3. The weaker religion is eliminated, as all of the beings are now co-opted, but the influence remains strong in that the mythic natures (otherworlds) of many beings are still considered.
4. The religion turns all of the beings into the primary sort, in order to maintain a consistency of belief. This may result in misapplied worship, or in "conversion" of the beings in question (or creation of new mythic beings that form "converted.")

How's that? Sounds like you're working from 1 to 2 in your game as regards the Christian church and the previous religions of the British Isles.

Mike

[droog]

Those are just my impressions. never done it myself.
Sam.

Thanks, Sam--a ton of useful ideas, very much in tune with what I'd like to do. Pity we can't get together and play.

[droog]

More telling about the long-lasting effects of syncretism, however, are the places where power comes from. To make the HQ parallel, which is easy since wizardry is pretty much based off of generic catholicism (but I repeat myself), some of the catholic saints are possibly based on legendary figures from other myths. Hard to say, since most records kept are from Catholic sources, which will claim that the individual actually lived, and was not created from another religion's myth.

Eg, St Brigid?

I think we see a long-term evolution here.
1. Religions end up together in the same area. One can worship one or the other.
2. Religions start to co-opt beings, one from the other. It starts to be true that you can worship in a religion that has some beings that were formerly of the other religion.
3. The weaker religion is eliminated, as all of the beings are now co-opted, but the influence remains strong in that the mythic natures (otherworlds) of many beings are still considered.
4. The religion turns all of the beings into the primary sort, in order to maintain a consistency of belief. This may result in misapplied worship, or in "conversion" of the beings in question (or creation of new mythic beings that form "converted.")

How's that? Sounds like you're working from 1 to 2 in your game as regards the Christian church and the previous religions of the British Isles.

Mike

That sounds about right. And we're getting back to my original questions, are we not? There seems to be an underlying premise, or perhaps a group of premises, I can't quite articulate. Something about how people react to these sorts of changes, or perhaps how belief follows circumstances. Henry Treece's books The Golden Strangers and The Great Captains have something like this in them.