Math (and Death of a System)?

[Domhnall]

My system requires doing basic math in combat (just + & -), which really means that a basic calculator is needed in play.  Does this (on its own) doom my system to be rejected by most?  How has calculator-dependence in other systems affected its populariy?  What are those other systems?

Thanks.

[Jack Aidley]

I tend to feel calculator dependence would cripple a system. But are you sure a calculator is needed? If it's just + & - you should be able to manage without. With a little thought, one can usually come up with simplifying methods of working out the roll needed.

[Stickman]

From personal experience them most 'mathy' I've seen a game get in play is Rolemaster combat, where it's D100 + mods, but the percentile is open ended, so something like 96+71 + 35 -12 is possible. In game play people seemed to either get used to it, or 'umm and arr' so much that other players chip in and do the addition. As well, a certain degree of fudge factor comes into play, and it becomes a case of 'well, I got about 190'.

If the maths in that league I'd gues that for engineer types it'll be fine. If it's more detailed, I think the presence of a calulator will be generally a little intrusive. Would you be able to write / get written a short piece of code to have running on a laptop / PDA?

Otherwise, look at simplifying :)

[Domhnall]

Well, the problem is that it's the Attacker's # minus the Defender's #.  The sum gives a result, and each point matters (so rounding would seem to hurt the game).  It is "simple" math, but people still can play much faster with a calculator.  Is this aversion to calculators permanent?

It's funny you should mention PDAs... I've envisioned a decade down the road where dice are no longer prominent at the gaming table, but little networked PDAs are doing all the crunching for us.  If I could have PDAs as standard, I'd go nuts with all the systemic realism in the world since the players wouldn't have to worry about it.

[Jack Aidley]

If it's just attackers # - defenders # I wouldn't sweat it. Unless you're working in some crazy d1000 world, most players should be able to work it out quickly enough without a calculator.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I think we need a little more information about the game, otherwise this thread will turn into an opinion-fest. And maybe it would help to raise a more specific question ... there's no way anyone can tell you whether "people would be turned off" or not.

Subtractions of the kind you're talking about are very common, as you know. I suggest that the very best implementation I've seen is found in Pocket Universe, and recommend that you check it out for comparison.

Best,
Ron

[J. Tuomas Harviainen]

I suggest that the very best implementation I've seen is found in Pocket Universe, and recommend that you check it out for comparison.

And as a comparison point on math use that did turn many people away, I suggest taking a look at some of FGU's games from the early 90's. "Aftermath" would probably be the best example, if you can somehow get your hands on it. With basic add/substract you're still very far from its multi-decimals, but a look at how complex things might get may give you better perspective on what level of complexity you'd actually want to use.

-Jiituomas

[Domhnall]

Well, it is just simple math with whole numbers, with defender's #s being subtracted (with each attack) from the attacker's #s.  The various mods affecting attack and defense which are "permenant" (wearing certain armour, etc.) are included in the character's combat sheets and the sum # is written in its appropriate field.  So, characters roll their dice (for attack and defense) and adjust it with their own mods and with the mod of the opponent.  So it could look like this:
Attack [Roll (45%) plus Mod (67%)] = 112% minus [Defense roll (25) plus Mod (35) =] 60 = 52%.  Then 52% gets cross referenced on a chart showing a result.  

I don't know how similar this is to Rolemaster, but even though it is simple math, people generally go faster using calculators than doing it in their heads.

[GB Steve]

That would stop many of my non-maths background friends from playing. They don't like hard sums*, they don't like tables, and they certainly don't want to use a calculator. But then, if my friends are not your target audience it's not a problem.

*And 3 digit arithmetic is hard sums for some of them.

[Kielan]

I've recently released a game (Hexicon fantasy RPG) and it requires a calculator. We've not had much feedback yet aside from our own playtesting (early days) but I suspect we'll get some flack on this point. The calculations are multiplications, not additions, hence the calculator is fairly essential. That said, it's only the GM who needs one, and I'm sure that could easily be the case in your system. I've run games with very non-mathsy types, and as long as their task is just to roll a couple of dice and tell you what they got they don't mind at all if you tap the numbers into a calculator. Hence it's only the GM you have to convince that the game is worth the trouble. In my opinion, it's just as quick and easy to type 14 x 1.6 into a calculator as it is to add up 5d6 or see how many times you rolled under 2 on four dice (for example) but just the thought of a calculator will probably leave many people cold.

[Domhnall]

...
. In my opinion, it's just as quick and easy to type 14 x 1.6 into a calculator as it is to add up 5d6 or see how many times you rolled under 2 on four dice (for example) but just the thought of a calculator will probably leave many people cold.

Yes, this is my opinion as well.  And so it leads me to think that the disdain for calculators is mostly prejudicial rather than actually being cumbersome.  

But, both GM and player "need" calculators in my game, for both ease and expedience.  Stong math-type participants can do without, but they seem to be the minority.

[groundhog]

You must remember the homework factor. If it feels like a game, it's fun. If it feels like homework, well, forgetting about that is why a lot of people play games. Using a calculator because the math is too cumbersome to fit in headspace makes it feel like homework.

[Bailywolf]

...
. In my opinion, it's just as quick and easy to type 14 x 1.6 into a calculator as it is to add up 5d6 or see how many times you rolled under 2 on four dice (for example) but just the thought of a calculator will probably leave many people cold.

Yes, this is my opinion as well.  And so it leads me to think that the disdain for calculators is mostly prejudicial rather than actually being cumbersome.  

But, both GM and player "need" calculators in my game, for both ease and expedience.  Stong math-type participants can do without, but they seem to be the minority.

I need some more info on your specific mechanics before being able to give you a really useful answer, but simple add/subtract is not much or a problem, especially if the numbers involved generally remain in the 1-20 range.  Add/subtract of percentiles can be a slowdown though...  

Have you considered keeping your #'s rounder?  Incrementing by a factor of 5 (or better yet, but 10) for most modifiers is going to make things easier to manage, leaving the odd percentile to come from character stats.  

You could also include a basic grid or table, working the math into the grid rather than requiring everyone to do it by calc or in their heads (or offering this as a play aid).  

Here is a design question for you- why use a percentile scale for your traits?  Could you do what you want to do with the significantly grainier (but much much easier to manage) 1-10 scale of a single d10 roll?

-B

[zephyr_cirrus]

Another thing that certain calculators (in this case, the Texas Instruments graphing calculator line) can do is generate dice rolls for you, so you don't need to carry around a big bag of dice, you just need a calculator.  Also, the calculators I'm referring to can also do decimals and strange dice rolls (for example, d13, d19, and d23, if you so desire.)

[FLEB]

Just a thought... I'm not totally sure on the specifics, but you might be able to work the math into some sort of custom-made slide-rule or circular whatchamacallit gauge-like device.