To read or not to read?

[dysjunct]

So, for the past several weeks I've been bitten by the "get-off-your-@$$-and-design-an-RPG" bug, and have been diligently putting things through my mental centrifuge and seeing what sticks.

However, as I've been doing this, I've also been paying a lot more attention to this forum and indie games in particular -- not mining for ideas, but rather just trying to get a better understanding of the process so I don't end up spinning my wheels.  And, well, I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like every time I turn around, someone is developing/has developed systems or settings that are eerily similar to my pet project in one way or another.  Sometimes in multiple ways.

I realize that this is, to a large extent, a result of the RPG paradigm.  There's only so many ways one can address narrative structure and conflict resolution, or for that matter roll dice.  I don't think this is necessarily bad or good, although I certainly don't want novelty for its own sake.

My question is:  Do you consider it helpful to expose yourself to other games during the design process, or not?  By exposing yourself to other ideas, do you risk contaminating your own, or is it worth the opportunity to veer away from ground which has already been trod?  Or should one work feverishly in the confines of one's personal dungeon, in order to preserve the shimmering purity of unsullied design -- so that, upon unveiling, one can rest in the knowledge that despite similarities, the effort is yours and yours alone?

Thoughts?

[matthijs]

I think you should probably keep reading, and keep designing. If you don't read what's going on, it's easy to make the same mistakes others have made before you. Even if you read about games that are similar to yours, chances are 1) they'll end up very different from your game after playtest, and 2) they might not get published after all.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

My question is: Do you consider it helpful to expose yourself to other games during the design process, or not? By exposing yourself to other ideas, do you risk contaminating your own, or is it worth the opportunity to veer away from ground which has already been trod? Or should one work feverishly in the confines of one's personal dungeon, in order to preserve the shimmering purity of unsullied design -- so that, upon unveiling, one can rest in the knowledge that despite similarities, the effort is yours and yours alone?

-You absolutely must read other games!  You definately want to expose yourself as much as possible to get a good handle on the many different styles and mechanics of other games.  Not doing so risks redundancy of another game, a "pure" but incomplete design, a failure to grasp the needs of a diverse player base, and so on.

-Take a look at the indepdendant game forums on this site.  Look at the names of the games that have their own forums and consider purchasing several to read and research.  Also, I'd highly recomend games like GURPS, Rolemaster, Noblis, and Ars Magica.  But those are just a few I happen to like.

-In short, definately read and research other games.  And, Ron's articles on this site.

-Peace,

--Troy

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'm an advocate for the idea that more knowledge is better than less. I also suggest that you consider yourself very much in the research phase of R&D, rather than the development phase.

You might find these older threads to be interesting reading:
Mike's standard rant #1: Designers! Know your hobby! (especially)
Concepts are a dime a dozen (secondary, but helpful too)

Best,
Ron

[Andy Kitkowski]

However, as I've been doing this, I've also been paying a lot more attention to this forum and indie games in particular -- not mining for ideas, but rather just trying to get a better understanding of the process so I don't end up spinning my wheels.  And, well, I'll be damned if it doesn't seem like every time I turn around, someone is developing/has developed systems or settings that are eerily similar to my pet project in one way or another.

Hey man, I was in the same state as you for a while. It can be... what's the word... "impotence inducing"?

Take Ron's advice to heart- Think of yourself doing R&D.  But if you really have the bug, and think that you have enough to work with, do not delay from putting pen to paper and hammering out your game.  You can always use Indie Game Design to throw your drafts on for critique and polishing.  Don't let "Achieving the best possible iteration of your idea into rules as humanly possible" hamstring you from actually getting down to the dirt and grime of writing out your game.

Plus, not every game needs to have "The latest, hottest, best-thought-out mechanics".  For an example of this, I point a finger to Rafael Chandler's DREAD: The First Book of Pandemonium.  The game is simple, has many (comparitively) flaws or broken/unexplained rules ("Can I use "Soldier" for Combat rolls?"), many "See Page X" (where Page X has nothing of the sort on it) boffs, and really treads no new ground in terms of rules... but it is a fucking blast to play, and absolutely one of my favorite Top Five games*.

In the end, Research is great... but don't let it get in the way of you actually producing your game.  A lot of people end up giving up, being overrun with data, or being caught up so much in what's going on around them that they never want to leave the safety of the Research Phase.  Don't let that be you. :-)

-Andy

ps- If you want to try your hand at design without a huge amount of commitment, check out the 24 Hour RPG Project -> www.24hourrpg.com . It may be right up your alley.

*Rafael makes up for it by being one of the best horror fiction writers I have ever read. DREAD was almost a vehicle for his writing.

[jdagna]

Two pices of advice:

1) Keep reading AND keep writing.  You cannot create in a vacuum.
2) Finish your first game and throw it away.  No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.

I would strongly urge you to consider your current game concept as a trial and error sort of experiment.  Do write it and do make it the best you can, but do so with the perspective of a kindergartner doing finger-painting - it's just a learning experience, and should be viewed as one of many along the road to mastery.

And there are things that actually finishing a game will teach you that you can't learn in any other way.  Testing individual mechanics or theorizing about components have their place, but you can't understand the whole process of creating an RPG until you create something you can call finished.  I can't specifically articulate what you'll learn (and everyone may learn something different), but once its done and you can step back from it, you'll probably notice a definite shift in perspective and understanding about the process.  I know I felt it, and I've worked with several people who had the same revelation.

[Andy Kitkowski]

2) Finish your first game and throw it away.  No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.

Brilliant.

I've worked on other creative projects and the above is pretty much the lay of things in those realms, so I'm willing to bet that it applies to game design as well.

Now, some folks take that first design and, without publishing it, playtest it and playtest it and refine it until it resembles a Whole New Game (points finger at Sorcerer), but it's pretty much the same deal.

[Solly Brown]

Justin,

You've just said it all, you're the wise man sitting on top of the mountain.

Seriously I agree with you 100%. It is exactly like that.


Jonathan Ridd
Cold Blooded Games
Dog Town: Pure Punk Role Playing

[Luke]

if you're looking to become a good game designer, not just hacks like the rest of us, you might consider actually getting out and playing a lot of games. RPG rules are interesting to read, but don't often make sense until you actually sit down and play them.

-L

[paulkdad]

(One) Don't be shy about mining for ideas anywhere you find them. You can bet the people who wrote the games you're looking at grabbed their ideas from somewhere. So, you'll make a nice list of "references" for your preface, and if anyone looks at these references, they'll find more references. It's all derivative (that's postmodernism, I guess)... don't worry about it.

(Two) Don't get attached to anything. You may think you've got the perfect conflict resolution system, and by the time you get everything else worked out you realize that it just doesn't fit. I find that it's a lot like working on a drawing... I have to be willing to wipe out anything that doesn't work with the other parts. The fact that I spent time working on those areas is only relevant because I learned something while doing it.

(Three) Tools are your friend... choose them wisely. As a visual artist, I can tell you that the tools you use can (and probably will) have a tremendous impact on the final product. Part of the R&D you are doing is finding the tools that hinder your creative process the least. For me, these tools are a digital voice recorder (because my mind is like a sieve) and Inspiration software (because I have to organize things visually). You'll have different tools, but find the ones that work for you.

Hey, good luck. I wish you the best. If any of this doesn't fit, please ignore it.

[MatrixGamer]

We live in a social world. If you go into a cave and design - at the end of the day you want to come back to the world. So why not stay out in the light and enjoy company?

The similarity between games is that zeitgheist thing. Darwin had it happen to him. I imagine someone else would have come up with the therory of reletivity if Einstein hadn't. Never take that stuff personal.

Say when you are out in the sunlight of the Indie game community, you come across a game that flips your switch. If it compells you then you might join that bad wagon as an "Evangalist". Maybe it inspires new ideas for your game. Whatever happens, creativity has always been fed by community rather than isolation.

When I started doing Matrix Game there literally was nothing like them in gaming. I was out in the wilderness because no one would let me in the house. Had I not had compulsiveness and obsession on my side I'd  have given up. Now there are a number of games that do similar things to mine. We all came to this from different direction and the increase in the community those who favor powerful players and weak or absent GMs only helps us all.

So please stay connected. It will not only help you make a better game it will also give you the contacts to spread the word about it.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

[anthony kilburn]

Although I myself check out every other game I can get my hands on, this question reminds me of Star Wars score composer John Williams, who (if I remember correctly) doesn't listen to other music, including his own, whilst creating a piece or pieces.  I wonder if enough identifiable traits from certain games integrated in my own might make the project weak in its own lack of substance.

[philreed]

2) Finish your first game and throw it away.  No one creates their masterpiece on their first try, but everyone is tempted to think they did.

Or 3,217th try. :)

I'll get behind this concept -- and not just with new games but anything you write/create. I frequently spend a day writing 5,000 words . . . and then spend thirty seconds the next morning deleting those 5,000 words.

[philreed]

if you're looking to become a good game designer, not just hacks like the rest of us, you might consider actually getting out and playing a lot of games. RPG rules are interesting to read, but don't often make sense until you actually sit down and play them.

And I'd say don't just play RPGs. Playing various card games, board games, and computer games can also help when writing RPGs and supplements.

[jdagna]

Although I myself check out every other game I can get my hands on, this question reminds me of Star Wars score composer John Williams, who (if I remember correctly) doesn't listen to other music, including his own, whilst creating a piece or pieces.  I wonder if enough identifiable traits from certain games integrated in my own might make the project weak in its own lack of substance.

I don't think John Williams is a very good example for this, however.  He's had a very long career already and may eventually be remembered among the likes of Mozart and Beethoven, though it's a little premature to say for sure.  You can bet that he spent a lot of time listening to and studying other people's music while he was still developing his own skills.  (In fact, if you pay attention to soundtracks in general, you'll notice elements in many pre-Star Wars movies by other composers that get used in Star Wars).

This is part of why I encourage people to toss out their first game and not take it too seriously.  It's just a learning experience.  Certainly Star Wars was not William's first composition, but darned if I've heard of the earlier ones.