Humanity roll: 50%?

[Per Fischer]

Just a quick rules question re: Humanity checks:

Humanity checks are rolled against Humanity itself, ie. the same number of dice. Does that mean a 50% chance for either "winning or loosing" the roll? A player asked med: couldn't you just flip a coin? I had no answer. Have I missed something?

Per

[Ron Edwards]

Humanity checks regarding ethics and other non-demonic stuff are against itself, and yes, that's 50%. There is a very important design principle underlying this. Humanity loss for such things is intended to be frequency-dependent. Also, there is no "death-spiral," because lower Humanity does not increase your chances of losing more Humanity, for these sorts of rolls.

Humanity checks regarding demonic rituals (specifically Contact, Summon, Bind) are against the demon's Power and therefore vary greatly in terms of probabilities. There is a very important design principle underlying this too. Humanity loss for such things is intended to be (in part) demon Power-dependent.

Make sure that everyone in your game understands the difference between these two. When anyone's confused about that, I also find that they are often confused as well about permissible character behavior at various Humanity levels. Unlike Cyberpunk or Vampire, a Sorcerer character has no limits or definitions of any kind on his or her behavior, at any positive value of Humanity.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

And since Ron didn't precisely address the question of "why not just flip a coin?":

The whole rolling-over-of-successes thing is vitally important in Sorcerer, and can be done (as far as I am aware) within pretty much any chain of related rolls.  Even though Humanity will only go up and down one point, the # of successes can still be important for selfsame related rolls, right?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Maybe, Alex. Depends on the actions and depends on how Humanity is defined, for that particular game.

Best,
Ron

[Judd]

I am embarassed to say that I hve been doing this incorrectly.

Shite.

Rules take forever to make their way through my thick skull.

Well, now I know.

[Per Fischer]

Judd, you're not alone ;)

But Ron, why not just flip a coin, or roll a die (uneven = loss)? It could fit well into some Sorcerer settings. There could be lots of other 50% techniques, of course, but is it a conscious design choice?

Per

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Per,

If I'm not mistaken, what you're suggesting is that every time dice are rolled against each other in Sorcerer, when they are equal in number in each group, then flip a coin.

Let's put aside the issue of totalling victories entirely and pretend we don't do that, and look at this question.

It just seems like a bizarre thing to ask. Sorcerer involves rolling dice, usually in groups. It just so happens that sometimes the result is 50-50. Why suddenly move over to a coin? Why bother keeping a coin around for that purpose when the dice are right there?

To me, the Humanity check (ethics version) is one of many, many possible rolls in Sorcerer. Yes, it and a number of others are 50% chances. So what? Why do anything besides roll the dice, which you're using for everything else?

Let's say you were playing a game which used a d100 (%). Would you put the dice down and dig a coin to flip out of your pocket instead when it just so happened that, given all the modifiers to a certain roll, the chance was 50%?

I suggest you wouldn't. You'd roll what you always roll, probably 2d10 with the "tens" die pre-indicated, and carry on. I certainly would.

Your friend's question looks reasonable, but it isn't. That's why it's so hard to answer.

Best,
Ron

[greyorm]

Not all rolls, Ron, just the Humanity one, which is always, always, always, always 50%. It's never not 50%, and such rolls are a central part of the game, not just a "sometimes we roll this thing here when it's like this." Because, functionally or perceptually because of these things, the Humanity check is like a whole different mechanic from the rest of the system.

As such, I can completely see why this question would be asked. Given that the Humanity roll is always 50%, why roll a bunch of dice against a bunch of other dice? That seems disingenious: why not simplify that particular mechanic when such simplification will have no overt effect on play or the rest of the system? ie: Is there any reason in particular such a simplification would have a negative (problematic) effect on the outcomes?

Otherwise, it seems to be the suggestion that because you need to drive to get everywhere you ever need to go, you should also drive to Peter's house even though you could just walk across the street (suggesting complexity for the sake of complexity, not out of necessity).

You are right, I wouldn't do it with any roll that had a 50% chance of success, only with Humanity -- and that is only because Humanity rolls are a concretely seperate entity in the rules, even if they work along the same guidelines as the rest of the rolls being made. I hope that helps make sense of the reasons behind the question for you?

[Trevis Martin]

Not all rolls, Ron, just the Humanity one, which is always, always, always, always 50%. It's never not 50%,

Humanity rolls for sorcery rituals are always vs Demon Power, and b/c of that are not always 50%.

Trevis

[Per Fischer]

If I'm not mistaken, what you're suggesting is that every time dice are rolled against each other in Sorcerer, when they are equal in number in each group, then flip a coin.

Heh, I kinda feared this ;) I am not suggesting to do that, I never have and haven't even considered it, the question arose from a group playing my Dark Places scenario and only regarding Humanity vs. Humanity, and when I was asked the question, I just said: "Ehhh...."

Thanks,
Per

[sirogit]

I think saying that it -can- be done with a coin reinforces several ideas about the Humanity check: This is a no-nonsense connection to your character's frequency of wrong doings and his coming closer to crossing the line. Being cool and using good tactics don't enter into it.

On the other hand, there's several good reasons for rolling the dice:

1) What Ron said.

2) Its a good way of establishing how much Humanity the character has. When you're rolling one die and its result decides what happens to your character, you're definately feeling more tension that looking over 5 which might become 4 in the future.

3) The possibility of using the Humanity Check Result as a bonus to another action.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Sirogit's right on all counts, and no, Raven, I don't agree with your points at all. I also don't really see any point to discussing it in more detail.

Per's needs have been served, I think.

Best,
Ron

[Andy Kitkowski]

It's been awhile since I read the rules in the book, but is there anything that suggests that great/entertaining roleplaying, coolness, strategy etc can NOT give you a die bonus to your Humanity Roll, as they can with other rolls in the game?

Cause if not, then that's why you roll dice: Coolness leads to bonus dice for the Humanity roll.

Unless I'm mistaken, in which case correct me.

-Andy

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Andy,

It took me a bit, but I found these threads eventually:
Humanity checks
Rules question - bonuses to Humanity check/gain

Best,
Ron