Sin City--I don't get it. Please help!

[GreatWolf]

With the movie coming out, I thought that I'd check out the graphic novels by Frank Miller.  I only read the first one (The Long Goodbye, I believe) with Marv.  I walked away from the book feeling...dirty...somehow.  Now, I'll grant that I've read all four of James Ellroy's L.A. novels (Black Dahlia, Big Empty, L.A. Confidential, and White Jazz), but, for some reason, Sin City felt nastier.  Maybe it's the medium.  I don't know.

Obviously, there are a number of Sin City fans here, including Ron, and I seek to be enlightened.  So I thought that I'd ask the assembled crowds:  why do you like the Sin City graphic novels?

[Bankuei]

Hi Seth,

Sin City has always appealed to me for its bitter cynicism and its machismo kick.  The protagonists don't whine and wallow in angst(unlike a lot of superheroes), they are willing to give up anything and everything for what they care about.  It's sort of the comic version of a John Woo triad movie and older gangster rap- in a crazy world, sometimes you just got to be crazier...  

Artistically, I was amazed by everything Miller was achieving in terms of mood, action, etc. with only a few colors, while the rest of the comics industry seems to have forgotten a great deal about the values of composition and contrast.  Nearly every panel can stand on its own as a piece, which was crazy.

Chris

[Sean]

I thought they were just O.K. Some good art and good bits, but they felt 'evacuated' to me, if that makes any sense. The Big Nowhere made me feel dirtier than they did, though I'd agree with Seth's comparison about the other three in the quartet.

They're too cartoonish to really feel noir and too nasty to feel like a heroic tale. Now, that's just saying I couldn't categorize them, but they also didn't possess sufficient raw aesthetic force for me to say "hey, I'm so good you need to make me a new category, like Cubism or something!"

I would be interested to find out that my judgment was off though. Maybe they're Dead Inside stories?

[Ron Edwards]

Um. At any point over the last few years, Seth, if you'd asked me about the comics, I would have said, "These really aren't for you. Let's take a look at Queen & Country, or maybe Courtney Crumrin, or any number of other really cool comics instead."

Best,
Ron

[GreatWolf]

Um. At any point over the last few years, Seth, if you'd asked me about the comics, I would have said, "These really aren't for you. Let's take a look at Queen & Country, or maybe Courtney Crumrin, or any number of other really cool comics instead."

LOL

Don't worry.  I've already been initiated (somewhat) into the wild and wooly world of comics.  I've read both "Understanding Comics" and "Reinventing Comics" which were both fascinating.  I've also read "V for Vendetta" and "Sandman" (but of course, everyone reads Sandman) and am working my way through "Watchmen" (cheap seats at the local Borders).  So Sin City hasn't turned me off to comics in general.

[Jason L Blair]

Watchmen, man, whew. I don't know if anyone who doesn't have distinct memories of growing up during the Cold War (admittedly, my memories are during the last stretch) can really appreciate that book.

Well, now that I've written that, I think maybe recent events can help put that book into perspective.

Either way, great book.

[John Harper]

Man, I have a lot to say about this. I don't know if I can get it all out in the right way.

The original Sin City book (called, simply, Sin City) is a pristine work of art. It's such a powerful aesthetic -- using the medium to maximum effect. Yeah, like Watchmen before it. And like Watchmen, it's an homage to something that the creator loves to death.

And, like Watchmen, it's a brilliant deconstruction of the superhero mystique. I think a lot of people don't notice this. On the surface, Sin City seems to pay homage to noir movies and dimestore pulp novels. But that's just the Color, if you will. Sin City is about superheroes, through and through.

Instead of capes and energy beams Miller gives his protagonists overcoats and torture with razor-wire. The bombastic soliloquies are replaced with gritted-teeth macho voice-overs. But Marv and the rest of them Do What Must Be Done, No Matter What. And guess what? They're not heroic. They're morally simplistic sadists in a world of horrors. We still care about them (which says a lot about Miller's ability as a storyteller) but we can't condone what they do. It's thinly-justified thuggery...

... just like (almost) all superhero stories. Pow! Frank puts yet another nail in the coffin of the superhero mystique. I thought he killed it off real good with The Dark Knight Returns but apparently there was enough life left to squeeze out with Sin City.

Plus, it's kick-ass Noir style, warts and all. If you like that kind of thing. And I do.

[Marhault]

I read Sin City when it first came out.  Didn't care for it much.  I saw the movie last weekend and was blown away.  I wonder if I have just matured in the intervening years, or if the story was more accessible to me on screen than it was on the page.

As for deconstructing superhero mythology. . .  Howzabout Astro City?  Now there's a book. . .

And since we're recommending things. . .  Mage.  Grendel.  Really, anything Matt Wagner has ever done, but especially those two.  And, now that I'm thinking of it in combination with the Forge, it seems to me that Grendel is a spectacular Sorcerer story:  A series of sorcerers, all trying to bind the same demon.  The only one who truly masters it is Orion, and Brian totally botched his Binding roll. . .

[rafial]

As for deconstructing superhero mythology. . .  Howzabout Astro City?  Now there's a book. . .

Indeed.  Except that it is reconstructing superhero mythology.

After all, you've got to do something with all those parts that were lying around.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Seth, you're mistaking my meaning. I'm not talking about whether comics are good, or whether you should like them. For the titles I mentioned, you can substitute any book or movie or anything else that I think you might like.

The point is that Sin City is about stuff, which is to say, it's not mere porn (you and I have discussed my definition of porn in the past), but it's stuff that I don't think you would enjoy. That's all.

So my answer to your basic question in this thread is, "I think we would all be happier if you didn't inquire further - your basic conclusion that this isn't your thing is valid, and all further dialogue would merely confirm it."

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

As long as we're recommending titles, let me put Planetary and The Ultimates on the table.  They both use a technique of external camera only, similar to the camera perspective in Primetime Adventures.  Cool stuff with excellent writing.  If you remember the original Avengers, the Ultimates provide a no-holds-barred reconstruction of those characters.  Heady stuff.

Sin City, for all its moral turpitude and squalor, had a beating heart beneath all the violence - and not just there for cannibal protein, either.  Hell of a movie, IMHO, with amazing imagery.

Best,

Blake

[Nev the Deranged]

Just got back from the movie... quite a ride. The lines were a bit cheesy and the actors delivering them clearly knew it and didn't mind. The stories and scenes were pretty predictable. The visual style was jarring at first, but once you accepted it...

well, it was pretty cool ^_^ Sin City felt to me like the dark side of Dick Tracy, which used a lot of the same cinematic conceits- color, prosthetics, and grit. It also felt like Kill Bill- everybody had a job to do and nothing short of God himself is gonna stop them from doing it.

As a fan of Carnivale, it was cool to see Nick Stahl doing his thing on the other side of the moral equation (and bleeding yellow instead of blue this time).

Marv was awesome. And he gives us a new urine-coaxing one liner: "That's a nice coat you're wearing.."

[Nev the Deranged]

Oh, yeah. And is it just me, or does the zigzag stripe on Kevin's shirt evoke a really, really twisted Charlie Brown?

I gotta get me one of those.