Table & Text: Strange Bed-fellows

[Judd]

I have been going through some of the threads from the Forge Birthday topic, Best Threads of the Year.

As a rabid writer of fiction and a rabid gamer, I am fascinated by this odd relationship.  

I think it is made even more odd by the Story Hour forums over at ENworld.  Here we can see a great many frustrated fiction writers, myself included, writing up our games as fan-fiction so that others can "ooh" and "aah" at our writing and gaming efforts.  Many of them are quite cringe-worthy, as you can well imagine but others show a really interesting play-style and solid writing.

When I ran a Midnight game for a buddy of mine a few years ago, I wrote quite a bit on the game's outcomes, having quite a bit of fun along the way.  JJ would send me e-mails of his character's thoughts at each bang, so I coudl write from his PC's point of view without putting thoughts directly into his head.  

In a way, there was a symbiotic relationship between the writing and the gaming.  The writing got me thinking of various angles and future bangs.  Sending me his PC's inner-thoughts got JJ thinking about his character's drive and motivations.

I was wondering if anyone ever ran a game with the expressed goal of making short stories from the outcomes.

How long until a game is created whose goal is to inspire writing.  If I were to do a fantasy heartbreaker, I think that would be the game's slant, a game to inspire group writing, a RPG writing exercise.

I am not sure where I'm going with this but I'm just finding that line, between table and text to be an interesting one.

I would like to see games that rather than deny a connection, throw them at each other and see what happens.

[groundhog]

A group I took part in actually focused on either novel or feature-film types of records. We put a slow-speed tape recorder in the room for every session, and used the players' game journals and drawings of scenery to make a fairly complete record of what was happening.

We were planning to transcribe everything into either novel or screenplay form at a later date, but we ended up just listening to them and getting high.

[TonyLB]

I think the problem is that the story-detritus of a good roleplaying session is not necessarily good story.  And the session that creates a good story is not necessarily a good roleplaying session.  Which makes for a somewhat sketchy connection, if you're hoping for a reliable fiction-generating tool.

[JMendes]

Hey, :)

It has always been my general contention that a story that is good as fiction will turn out unsatisfactory as an RPG session plot, and that the plot from a good RPG session will turn out to be bad fiction.

Then again, I've just started playing PtA, and my mind is now wavering on this point.

Time will tell...

Cheers,

J.

[TonyLB]

So, after more thinking:  Some things in a good story are clearly reproducible within the province of RPG.  Character consistency, for instance, can be encouraged very strongly through rules that make character development central and explicit.  So why not other things?

But Judd... do you imagine this connection between writing and RPG going just one-way?  Or would the way that players chose to write up events have an impact on the game itself?  Would the potential RPG rewards, in other words, encourage people to try modes of writing that they wouldn't otherwise be tempted by?

[John Kim]

How long until a game is created whose goal is to inspire writing.  If I were to do a fantasy heartbreaker, I think that would be the game's slant, a game to inspire group writing, a RPG writing exercise.

I am not sure where I'm going with this but I'm just finding that line, between table and text to be an interesting one.

I would like to see games that rather than deny a connection, throw them at each other and see what happens.

Hmm.  For my last several campaigns, I've been much more studiously writing up session summaries for what happens each time.  I don't see this as fiction for itself, but rather as an aid to the continuing campaign for the players.  However, it also can be (and is) seen by people outside the game.  

There is definite feedback in this -- i.e. the fact that the summaries were written up, and how they were written up, has an effect on the game as it continues.  At the simplest level, it gives a greater sense of continuity.  i.e. The Vinland game took place over three years real time, so it would be easy to forget past things.  But the summaries gave it more of a sense of being a single whole epic.  

In my current Buffy game, we have another interesting interaction of text -- the in-character blogs.  These aren't generally summaries of what happens, but rather in-character commentaries on what happened and discussion in itself.

[ScottM]

I've often done the note-taking/ character journal/ writeup thing.  Sometimes, as John Kim suggested it was for continuity, sometimes it was because I'd been bribed.

In Amber, you can promise to keep a character diary, session log, or create character portraits for extra points at character generation.  The drawback is that the points are upfront but the commitment is ongoing, so logs and journals often lag... and feel forced.  On the other hand, session logs can be written in story format (instead of A then B then C happened)-- it's usually not great fiction, but it's decent and a good record.

Many of the Amber short stories in their periodical (Amberzine) were character diaries or session logs, slightly rewritten for print.  The quality varied, but they offered some interesting reads.

For myself, I found that a session may inspire some writing-- but usually it has to shift to make it a better read.  I was inspired to write up one encounter in a D&D campaign from my character's point of view... but only the one.  It was fascinating to get back in the character's head (at my leisure after the session) and expand on the thoughts that were passing through her head.  Yet-- it was more a short story inspired by the game events than a writeup of the events.

Sorry for the rambling.  I think that some campaigns have already been run with the understanding that they'd become short stories, but so far I haven't heard of games being written for group writing.  Strike that-- De Profundis is supposed to be in character letters to other characters... that sounds like what you're aiming for.  I haven't played it, but the descriptions I've heard make it sound like it's what you're anticipating.

Hope this proves useful to you.
Scott

[Jason Mical]

Good fiction and good gaming share many of the same elements: strong characters, conflict, pacing, etc. I structure an adventure in much the way I structure a story (the good old three-act movie model works 95% of the time). That being said, the pacing is much different for a game than it is for fiction, and some of the elements simply don't translate well. Dialogue espcially is tricky, and there are quite a few things you can do with fiction that you simply cannot duplicate in a game (wrap your head around the possibility of running an adventure based on the book House of Leaves, for example).

That being said, I've successfully adapted fiction to adventures many times. I enjoyed running an Aliens-style adventure, in a pseudo-historical pirates setting. I was quite unhappy with the story of 30 Days of Night, but I loved the premise, so I turned it into a very successful adventure.

Aside from gaming journals, though, things typically don't flow very well the other way. Even gaming journals can be pretty tedious to read. Do a google search for gaming journals based on the World's Largest Dungeon module (there are several out there), and do a quick comparison - I doubt you'll read past the first couple of entries on most of them.

That being said, I think the possibility of a great adaptation is there (rumor has it that Raymond Feist's Magician was an adaptation of one of his gaming worlds/adventures), but it's something that's largely untapped at the moment.

[Paganini]

It has always been my general contention that a story that is good as fiction will turn out unsatisfactory as an RPG session plot, and that the plot from a good RPG session will turn out to be bad fiction.

This statement "stories that are good as fiction will turn out unsatisfactory as an RPG session plot" is something I've encountered fairly frequently over the years. It always strikes me as putting the cart before the horse. Or trying to drive a cart with a goldfish. Or something.

The thing is, the problem in the statement is not where the person making the statement thinks it is. The problem is not with "good fiction stories." The problem is with "will turn out."

This statement contains the assumption that the plot exists *before* play, and that it will be adhered to during play. This statement could be rewired as "Reenacting fiction makes for boring RPGs."

Well.... DUH!

On the flip side, post-session transcripts often produce fiction quality stories in my experience. I'm not just talking about my pervy nar stuff... I'm talking about our SOAP games. Funny stuff, as well as dramatic stuff.

Now, maybe a session transcript would need a little polishing before publication. I mean, I wouldn't want to try and write up Mike's Hero Quest game for publication without some pruning. But if you consider the improvisational generation of RPG session-transcripts to be about on the same level as an author writing down a first draft it works fine. I often enjoy reading over IRC logs of games we played a couple of years ago. A lot of times I'll run across games I'd forgotten that are really entertaining to read.

[Bill Cook]

There is definite feedback in this -- i.e. the fact that the summaries were written up, and how they were written up, has an effect on the game as it continues. At the simplest level, it gives a greater sense of continuity. i.e. The Vinland game took place over three years real time, so it would be easy to forget past things. But the summaries gave it more of a sense of being a single whole epic.

This has been my experience. My Sorcerer campaign, in particular, benefited from doing write-ups. The players came to expect it. Knowing you had a hand in creating the transcript entices you to read it. And if you didn't really quite get what was motivating some other character (i.e. a PC another player is controlling), reading it in words, in black and white, helps to clarify the SIS.

Also, just like in the writer's group I briefly belonged to, hearing/reading other people's stuff that so sucks makes you a better writer. Because you for god's sake don't want to sound that stupid, so you avoid their mistakes. It's like getting multiplied. So why are you still reading this? Go read a stranger's play transcripts!

Now, maybe a session transcript would need a little polishing before publication .. I often enjoy reading over IRC logs of games we played a couple of years ago. A lot of times I'll run across games I'd forgotten that are really entertaining to read.

I find the pruning I do results in what my players accept as what happened. Very notable, that.

The photo album thing is true, too. It reminds you of where you've been and can make you think, "Geez, it's like I'm good at this."

[JMendes]

Hey, :)

Pag, that's not exactly what I meant. :)

What I meant is that, if there is some as yet unexisting plot out there to be made to come into being, there is precious little overlap between the plots that I would enjoy as a reader if some good writer were to put them on paper, and the plots that I would enjoy as a player if some good GM were to put them in session.

Addressing your other point more specifically, I too enjoy reading over old logs of sessions I was in, and I sometimes enjoy reading about other people's sessions as well. But it's not the same type of enjoyment I draw from  reading a good book.

I recognize that this may just be me, and that your mileage may vary...

Cheers,

J.

[Lance D. Allen]

I'd like to put a slightly different spin on this.

As I've pointed out before, I used to be an avid Free-form Roleplayer, in a little community that was born on AOL called Lyran Tal. While there was no requirement that the players write, there was an expectation. There was also an expectation that good roleplayers were good writers, and in that particular medium, it wasn't too incredibly far off. Often, play was totally free-form, with no intent to use what happened in play directly in writing. There would be vague references to events that happened in play, but hardly something to keep a log for.

But sometimes, scenes would be set up specifically for the purpose of writing. It wasn't uncommon that a given story would have two or more writers, if they were all collaborating in set-up scenes. When such a scene was set up, there was a general desired outcome or event that one party or the other wanted to have happen. The purpose of the scene was to detail how such a thing came to pass, and/or it's results. Sometimes, depending on the play and trust dynamic between the participating players, those events were a surprise to the others, but it frequently happened that all involved players knew what was to happen, and would work together to craft the dialogue and interactions into something memorable.

Some of the best stories and some of the worst stories I read were based on play logs. Some of the worst I wrote were. There's a certain amount of fudging necessary to take a dialogue heavy scene (as most FFRP is) and turn it into something worth reading. You don't want to hit every single sentence and phrase, but you want to highlight those that were important or particularly entertaining and memorable. Sometimes you might even change the wording, even for characters that don't belong to you. It's customary to give the semi-finished product to your partners to approve, especially if you change anything. Generally, however, you never changed anything notable without total buy-in by all participants.

I guess the thrust of where I'm going with this is that I believe that such a play-to-write paradigm is possible, and possible to do well. Much of the fiction the community produced is on par with the game journals and fan-fics that are mentioned further up in this topic. But there are some real gems there, and some of the best, most memorable and interesting were inspired by actual play. A dialogue just seems more real when it's an actual dialogue, instead of just one writer trying to play both sides of the conversation.

[Judd]

But Judd... do you imagine this connection between writing and RPG going just one-way?  Or would the way that players chose to write up events have an impact on the game itself?  Would the potential RPG rewards, in other words, encourage people to try modes of writing that they wouldn't otherwise be tempted by?

If the connection between the two is going to be meaningful, I'd think it would have to be smybiotic and reciprocal, one feeding the other.  Kickers would seem to be a key part of this kind of play as would in-game mechanics for how the story effects play.  Rewards for trying new modes of writing is really interesting.  It would be neat to kind of be able to set goals before play with rewards for different kinds of writing styles.

I wish I were a firmer hand on this rudder but I'm not sure where I'm going with this topic.  I posted this because I felt like I was wrestling with something bigger than me.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Latigo]

Paka - I think you're correc that there is a real gaming / writing connection...I certainly didn't sit down intending to write all those rhymes that "Rocky" sent you when we played CAT.

Anyhow, if you want the players writing, my inner grognard says "Give 'em XP and they will do it".  OR just have a big carrot if they do.  (I used to do this with the kids at the elementary school for art and stories about the game they created for their regular classes, and they did piles of work.  I was fun to see them pass around their "self-fan-fictions" and "detailed battle scenes".  One 5th grade girl wrote a piece over 40 pages long (by hand) with some real solid expressions of both classical fantasy themes and young adult emotions in it...all because it was "fun to do" and made her a level above everyone else...(Fair enough says the DM...you want to write 40 pages for 20,000 xp?  You go kid!)

One way adult groups I've played in was to handle this by character journals.  Players got into seeing what each other wrote about the last week's game.

I find that "text heavy" games can get overwhelming to an outsider quickly, though...like the Ars Magica game in Ithaca that had a BOOK you had to read before you could play.  It was a journal of all their adventures, written by the DM with notes from the players.  You had to buy in on the whole trip (including writing) or not play (and a fair enough choice for their little band of 4 people who didn't need a distraction)

Best of all,

Pete

[groundhog]

We once tried a free-form LARP as a tool to kick-start an audio play (think Theater of the Mind or old-time radio plays before TV, but made in the modern day for burning to CD). The story was coming along pretty well before the second game session broke down into smoke breaks and metaphysical discussions for the rest of the night. It's not that we got bored with the roleplaying, but just that we found something that interested us more at that moment. Damn ADD. Anyway, I think it could have worked if we'd stuck to it.