Destiny and the Universal Character

[Valamir]

It seems like the resulting Fate points would almost ensure that his Love bites the big one. Perhaps this is good, perhaps this is bad. Guess you shouldn't double that destiny bonus!

Well, you could always just say that forsaking or betraying the destiny doesn't earn any more Fate...the Destiny being gone after all.

Or you could add other details that allows the player to declare certain things off limits to fate...or institute a Double Jeopardy rule that once Fate is used to capture Morpheus once, it can never be used to capture Morpheus again...or could institute a rule that allowed the players to collectively vote to reject any GM use of Fate that didn't seem fun to them...or you could simply recommend that the GM not do something like that and rely on his own GM skills to not be abusive.

Lots of different ways you could go, but those sorts of details are best determined after playtest.

But what about multiple destinies? Can characters have more than one destiny, either simultaneously or in succession?

Seems to me 1 destiny is complex enough.  I mean look at all the different uses someone could be "Destined for Greatness".  In my example above, the player wound up using that destiny to topple the local religious hierarchy.  By the time you wind up tracing the path of all of the player's use of the Destiny bonus you'll probably find there are alot of different permutations that play off of a single theme.

But again, I think at that point you're delving into details best left until after a round of playtesting determines whether a) the core concept works, and b) whether those details are actually relavent in play.


Sydney:  Thanks, and I know what you mean...as I was writing it I was thinking..."oooh, now I want to write a game like this"  Course I'd probably make the Destiny "Bonus" the primary resolution system and scrap any notion of stats and skills and stuff.

[timfire]

Sydney:  Thanks, and I know what you mean...as I was writing it I was thinking..."oooh, now I want to write a game like this"  Course I'd probably make the Destiny "Bonus" the primary resolution system and scrap any notion of stats and skills and stuff.

Totally. I think such a system would overpower the rest of the game anyway.

[anthony kilburn]

Just a very tiny aside, but Anakin fulfills his destiny of bringing balance to the Force.  1000 Jedi vs 2 Sith all the way down to 1 Jedi vs 2 Sith.

To be technical, the actual balance occurs when he kills the Emperor then dies himself.  Why?  Then there are no Sith and no Jedi.  Luke ain't no Jedi, he's a conflicted Force-user.


But anyway, another question:

If Destiny is designed to drive the character, what would create a love interest or any other goal?  After all, if the player wants the story to be about his character becoming king, what would the mechanic be that motivated him to do anything but that?

In the example of the wannabe king who sees his Love getting captured, why wouldn't the player just say with ease of conscience, "I don't want the game to end here!  Screw her; I guess my destiny lies elsewhere"?  (I assume we're only talking about player motivation at this point, as every assumption up until here has revolved around player choice.)  There would obviously be other things the character cared about besides his Destiny, but how would those come into play?

The only system I can think of would involve some kind of Tenet or Virtue traits, which would constitute a morality for the character.  Bonuses for pursuing them and/or penalties (or Fate) for betraying them.

See, that's why I was trying to attach a Pride to the Destiny trait.... that way, the character would be somehow punished for betraying his Destiny or a related Virtue/Tenet.  I want the Destiny to be greatly important, but not the only thing of importance.  After all, destiny is just an accumulation of following what you believe in, as far as I see it.  But too many "bonuses" for acting with a Destiny/Virtue/Tenet in mind would require more and more numbers and rules, and would almost make any traits besides these beliefs seem worthless, which is not what I wish to convey.

Does that make sense?

[Sydney Freedberg]

If Destiny is designed to drive the character, what would create a love interest or any other goal?... too many "bonuses" for acting with a Destiny/Virtue/Tenet in mind...would almost make any traits besides these beliefs seem worthless....

If a player consciously wanted to explore "love or destiny? which do I choose?" they could set themselves up for that, but you're right, the mechanics need to leave them room to do so (instead of "just roleplay it").

And Ralph's Very Cool Concept actually would require a certain amount of "white noise" / random adventures, especially early on, to "seed" the Destiny system by giving the player things to choose among.

[Valamir]

Some more Brainstorming:

For Fate Costs, I'd start with something like:

Magnitude of what is effected is determined by character's current destiny level.  Nature of what is effected costs Fate

2 Fate:  Take an object, possession, or piece of property.  At low Destiny the character's sword might break in the midst of a battle, or his horse might go lame in the midst of a mission.  At a high Destiny, Excalibur itself could be lost or the character's castle stormed and reduced to rubble.

3 Fate:  Damage the character's Lifestyle, or position in society.  At low Destiny ladies of breeding avoid him because of the blood on his hands.  At high destiny he's declared an outlaw and hunted.

4 Fate:  Threaten the safety of persons close to the character or damage the character's relationships.  The GM must provide an opportunity to save / restore the situation.  The character's children are kidnapped, his wife believes him dead and is now betrothed to another, his best friend believes he killed his brother.  At low Destiny the threat is easily dealt with (for now) at high Destiny its a campaign in itself.

5 Fate:  Kill a person or persons the character knows character or irrevocably change the character's relationships.  The character returns home to find his home burned (2 Fate) family butchered (5 Fate) and himself sold into slavery (3 Fate) ala Gladiator.  At low Destiny the person is a casual acquaintance.  At high Destiny the person is a close loved one or important patron.

[anthony kilburn]

As it was coming along, my mechanic involved three core stats—Body, Mind, Spirit—each given an appropriate value based on the character concept.  Then, the players were given x amount of points to define traits, which basically gave bonuses to the three stats.  Under Spirit is where I was mentally categorizing Destiny and its suitable bonus.  I imagined that any beliefs or virtues could become their own traits/bonuses.  The way I'm leaning now is that any number of traits can combine to augment the roll, which allows for Destiny and whatnot to influence the outcome.

But I just can't see the belief in something being the only determining factor in a conflict....

Or maybe the Destiny is the primary trait, with skills/talents/knowledges as modifiers to that main Destiny trait?

[Sydney Freedberg]

Actually, it might be interesting to allow characters to explore two different paths: building ever-higher levels of Destiny, with all the risks that entails (e.g. Anakin and Luke Skywalker); or building up personal prowess while struggling to steer clear of fate's clutches, which would be a relatively low-risk, low-reward strategy (e.g. Han Solo).

EDIT to add: So you get a Premise along the lines of "freedom or destiny?"

[anthony kilburn]

What about the overall result of Destiny?

I imagine that once a character fulfills that Destiny, he is finished with his story and becomes a Legend.  Therefore, once a player completes this story and his character is a Legend, that character is now unplayable and the player creates a new character if the game is still to be played.  This makes fulfillment of Destiny the end goal of the player/character.

[contracycle]

Well these destiny approaches have a number of problems, IMO.

First, as above, surely the culmination of the Destony is also the culmination of the character in play.  Thus, fulfilling the destiny will tend to be deferred, often indefinitely.

Second, inasmuch as the Destiny is important and meaningful, this then must be a story about the bringing about of that destiny.  Thus, the action of pursuing the Destiony becomes all of plot.  And worse, one plot for each character with a Destiny.

So, it seems to me, either such a game has to be 100%, relentlessly, about the pursuit and fulfillment of those destinies, or the destinies become impediments to be ignored, or a sort of affectation the character carries about with them, but which is essentially trivial.

Its not clear to me what you want the destinies to do - to coordinate play, or to assert a metaphysical fact about your world.

[timfire]

Well these destiny approaches have a number of problems, IMO.

First, as above, surely the culmination of the Destony is also the culmination of the character in play.  Thus, fulfilling the destiny will tend to be deferred, often indefinitely.

Second, inasmuch as the Destiny is important and meaningful, this then must be a story about the bringing about of that destiny.  Thus, the action of pursuing the Destiony becomes all of plot.  And worse, one plot for each character with a Destiny.

Good points. I thought I would mention that The Mountain Witch gets around this because character Fates aren't an end unto themselves. Fates in MW serve to position characters in conflict with other characters. Thus the story isn't about fate per se, but rather about how fate affects character relationships.

[anthony kilburn]

I think this destiny trait represents what someone perceives their purpose to be, both as a reflection of outside opinion and as an independent goal.  While I might think my destiny is "to give a great creation unto the world", the next guy's might be "to find contentment in my surroundings".  For myself, I might think my progress towards this "destiny" is minimal.  I'll be able to gauge this progress as I see the pieces falling into place.  For that other guy, he'll have his own perceptions on how to meter his success.

In either case, the importance of the goal is subjective.  While the other guy works night and day to meet someone special, make enough money to buy a house, and balance this "future" with his present needs, someone like me devotes his time to destiny when he gets the chance.  I know I'll eventually meet this goal, but it may happen in ways I can't forsee.

Destiny drives us, but doesn't necessarily have to be the driving force.  Personally, I have other beliefs and tenets that I must abide by in order to be true to myself.  Destiny only has importance so far as it's allowed.

DESTINY:
It's an overarching plot device, yes.
It's the über-story.
It's that tale of Mulder striving to prove the existence of UFOs.
It's the series arch.

But then again, there's other importances that cannot be ignored.  Even though I may feel I'm destined to become a great creator, I still play video games for fun, I still spend time with my girlfriend, and I still want to make money and be comfortable.  If I'm on my way to the printer with my game text—destiny nearly fulfilled—and I see notice my car is on fire, am I going to ignore it and run to the printer anyway?  No, I'm going to deal with my damn car because it's a safety hazard and because it has value to me.  Or had value.  Before it caught fire.  Damn car.

VALUES:
They're distractions to the main tale, yes.
They're the individual stories.
They're the cases that Mulder takes because although they're unrelated to the UFOs, there's still something to prove.
They're the episodes.


I like the idea of flexibility.  One-shots could involve plots that only concern the DESTINY.  Campaigns could concern themselves with all sorts of conflicts, eventually leading to that series finale....  Heh, the more I think about it, the more the stucture resembles a TV series or comic book serial.  Does that clear up my intentions in the slightest amount?


I dunno if this is compatible with typical RPG format.  I know that most games have a major impending "disaster" to work with/towards/against, but to have individually customed destinies?  And to offer a mechanic that rewards following such beliefs?

I'm still working on it, and I do appreciate the ideas generated by this thread.

[contracycle]

Well, my general thrust was to illustrate that Destiny is a really slippery fish in an interactive medium.  There are several ways of, lets say, phrasing what destiny means, and there are some problems inhertent to the finality of the concept.

I think there are two main functional strands: destiny as a kinda general character direction, as an expression of the characters views, or destiny as a structural device for coordinating the players.

I think the former actually has a fair amount of precedent.  WOD has the personality archetypes that award XP for sticking to the general thrust of the characters agenda, and encouraging long term consistency.  Fates Worse Than Death has a more refined system depedong on more specific moral values held by the character.

As a coordinating principle, much less work has been done, mainly IMO because of the habit of sticking to linear time.  This is the angle I was trying to tackle with my Tension proposeals; that the game itself be posessed of a destiny, in a sense rather looser than a railroaded plot.  One might say the aim is to establish a framework so that, if you have no idea what to do, you can always do whatever works toward the destiny in the confidence it will not wreck the direction and point of the game.

[Doug Ruff]

Sydney:  Thanks, and I know what you mean...as I was writing it I was thinking..."oooh, now I want to write a game like this"  Course I'd probably make the Destiny "Bonus" the primary resolution system and scrap any notion of stats and skills and stuff.

Totally. I think such a system would overpower the rest of the game anyway.

As an example of how this could be implemented in a minimalist way, how about The Pool?

(Available - for free - here for anyone reading this who doesn't have a copy.)

Because each player starts with a small number of dice which are unassigned to an ability, that takes care of a lot of the non-destiny conflicts.

A Destiny could be incorporated as any other trait, so for example:

Magnetic personality +1
Student of the Force +2
Athletic +1
Destined to bring balance to the Force +1

(Not an expert on the new movies, so don't expect the stats to be accurate.)
Destiny always starts at +1, doesn't cost starting dice, and cannot be increased by spending dice. Each time the Destiny is called on for a bonus, record a check against the Destiny.

Once four checks have been accumulated, erase them and change the Destiny bonus to +2; another 9 checks gets you +3 etc.

The Destiny can be "bought off" for a one-time bonus of double (abandoned) or quadruple (betrayed) the number of usual dice. This can also be used for "Death's Door" rolls.

Combine this with Ralph's excellent examples of Fate expenditure. The GM can do bad stuff to you whenever he chooses to as long as the Fate "cost" is less than the Destiny bonus. The idea being that the GM only uses this as a means to drive the story when there is a lull, or if the players call for it. If that seems abusive, the GM must award a check to the player every time he invokes Fate.

This is just an example (but I think it's playable as is). I'm putting this forward as something that you can react to; how would you do it differently?

[shaheddy]

I just skimmed the thread, so sorry if someone already pointed this out. FATE has a pretty decent destiny mechanic which seems similar to what y'all are discussing, especially if you allow invoking aspects to count as using author stance.

[anthony kilburn]

See, what I'm unsure about is how to assign "Fate".

The Destiny trait is a trait all characters possess.... now, if "Fate" is acquired every time Destiny is called upon, quite a sum would accumulate.  I almost want Fate to act as the "Dark Side of the Force" when large enough, but I'm reluctant to give the GM the power to spend Fate points against a character.  I'm racking my brain trying to come up with a system similar to those presented, minus the power it gives the GM.

My current thought is that each time Destiny is called upon, the character receives a number of Fate points equal to Destiny (Destiny +1 causes 1 point, while +4 earns 4 Fate points).  Perhaps, every few uses would earn the Fate points, but in any case, using Destiny brings Fate points to the character.  If this number ever reaches 11 (or whatever amount), the final fate is enacted (that "endgame" of doom), but the player can "buy off" Fate points with negative traits for their character.  For example, 5 points could become a "Broken Arm (-5)" trait, and anything involving this broken arm would incur the penalty.  The group (GM and players) would have to agree on the trait, and if desired, the player could maybe even give a positive bonus to an enemy (but all traits purchased would have to be fairly devistating to the player).  This discourages the GM from becoming the opposition of the players (which doesn't mean his characters cannot be opposition), and allows the game to evolve as more of a group endeavor, favoring the player's vision for his or her character.

I'm leaning heavily towards having the GM only act as the player of NPCs and "keeper" of the setting and such (isn't it obvious... LOL).

Any potential flaws?