Destiny and the Universal Character

[anthony kilburn]

Start by clicking here and catching up, as this is a continuation of a thread I started in the Design Forum asking about game traits, which evolved into a discussion about Destiny as a definable character trait, along with self-focused Pride as its foil.

I'm trying to develop a goal-based mechanic around these concepts, but to do so, first I want to see how they figure into the universal character, so you can identify a Destiny and Pride in everyone.

Plus, I keep getting schooled on gaming concepts that I know but lack the vocabulary knowledge to describe and/or indentify.


Read up, and join in—it's great fun.

[TonyLB]

Okay, let's talk about Destiny.  First question:  What kind of Destiny mechanic are we talking about?  One that defines Destiny before its fulfillment, during its fulfillment, or after its fulfillment?  Examples:

Before:  "My destiny is to destroy the cosmos... now I can either succeed or fail at that."
During:  "So I'm fighting to avoid temptation?  I want to stake a Destiny point on this, to make it a really pivotal moment for my character, however it turns out."
After:  "I just killed one of the men who murdered my father, and got a lead on the group he was working with.  That's a step in my destiny.  So my Destiny has something to do with revenge... maybe."

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Perhaps someone could list a few games with some solid Destiny/Ascension mechanics.  The only one I can kinda think of off the top of my head is Shadows of Yesterday, but I know there are better examples.  A list might help Killa out.

Peace,

-Troy

[timfire]

Off the top of my head I know of two general methods for introducing Fate/Destiny/Doom.

The first is to give a mechanical bonus for engaging in conflicts related to one's destiny. In other words, suppose I have the destiny "I wll become king." If I engage in a conflict with the current ruler, or if I'm trying to influence the rebels to join my cause, etc. I would gain a bonus to my dice rolls.

The idea here is that since players gain a bonus, they'll naturally seek out conflicts that are attuned to their destiny, as they will have a better chance at winning those types of conflicts. This requires, however, that the game allows for fate-related action. In other words, the wannabe-king wouldn't be very successful in a standard dungeon crawl, or in trying to save the local farmers from the capitalistic landowners.

Example: The Riddle of Steel and Tensho Bansho (is that spelled right, Andy?)

The second is to grant players the directorial power to introduce elements into the game that are related to said Destiny. Again, if I have the destiny "I will become king," I (as a player) could simply narrate "the current King is fond of long walks by himself through the castle garden... I'm going to try and sneak in kill him during one of those walks" or possibly "there is a rebel group that hates the current king. Many of them are old knights and friends of my father's. I'm going to try to influence them into joining my cause."

The idea here is that players will directly influence the the direction of the game by introducing events that push their destiny.

Examples: The Mountain Witch

Be warned, both of these methods put alot of power in the hands of the players, and fundamentally changes the role of the GM. In both cases, the GM is forced to be responsive to the action of the players.

[anthony kilburn]

Okay, let's talk about Destiny.  First question:  What kind of Destiny mechanic are we talking about?  One that defines Destiny before its fulfillment, during its fulfillment, or after its fulfillment?  Examples:

Before:  "My destiny is to destroy the cosmos... now I can either succeed or fail at that."
During:  "So I'm fighting to avoid temptation?  I want to stake a Destiny point on this, to make it a really pivotal moment for my character, however it turns out."
After:  "I just killed one of the men who murdered my father, and got a lead on the group he was working with.  That's a step in my destiny.  So my Destiny has something to do with revenge... maybe."

Before... but it's not the typical idea of destiny I'm thinking of here.  I'm going moreso in the direction of "What is my purpose in life?"  It's got two parts, I think: the ideal and the manifestation of that ideal.  For example: Ronaldo believes in justice as an ideal, and the manifestation of that ideal might be to become part of the legal system.  So, perhaps Ronaldo's destiny is to become an attorney and improve said legal system.

And what is that Pride I was talking about?  This would be the ego-driven trait that prevents such a destiny from being realized, as focusing on the self distracts from—and maybe even distorts—the ideal.  From my examination of character thus far, this tends to sprout from doubt or the need to prove one's worth.  For example: Ronaldo, in his life-long quest to become a lawyer and practice his ideal of justice, maybe finds it too difficult and cheats on the bar exam.  In his selfish need to find that success as a lawyer, he forgot about his ideals and took the quick and easy route.  Although he gets away with it, this haunts him later on in his career.

I must admit that I'm struggling to succinctly define these traits, but I really do think that there's a way to zero-in on them.  All people and characters have an end-point goal based on ideals of importance, and all people (I think) have an "inner-demon", so-to-speak, that prevents the destined conclusion to the journey.

Another problem I've noticed is the scope of destiny.  Is such a destiny trait a one-shot deal, which, once achieved, signals the end of the hero's journey?  Does the hero have multiple destinies at once?  Can the hero achieve one destiny and then create another?

The first is to give a mechanical bonus for engaging in conflicts related to one's destiny. In other words, suppose I have the destiny "I wll become king." If I engage in a conflict with the current ruler, or if I'm trying to influence the rebels to join my cause, etc. I would gain a bonus to my dice rolls.

I've pondered this possibility, that of a small bonus to tasks directly related to one's destiny, almost like a sort of "willpower" boost.  Then, success at these actions could give the player an opportunity to roll and increase the bonus for next time.

Do you really think a player would object to missions/adventures/tasks unrelated to his or her character's destiny?  As far as I'm concerned, even seemingly unrelated missions might better prepare a character for challenges down the road.  Besides that, just because someone is destined to be king doesn't mean that he eats, sleeps, and breathes what the future holds (or doesn't).  The character has other desires and wants, it's just that the destiny is an idealistic representation of character and virtue.

And do you think that a set of player-chosen beliefs or virtues would help to minimize the above effects?  For example: Since Erik the Wonderful wants to be king, he might have that "justice" ideal as well.  In addition to justice, Erik believes in praising the gods, respecting one's elders, and respecting women.  Even when presented with a mission that has nothing to do with becoming king, he may be forced to take it to defend the virtues he holds dear.  And whether or not he knows it, this mission will better prepare him in his quest for the throne.


In the end, though, this is all really about defining the above traits within a universal model.  Do you think the destiny, pride, and virtue traits exist within all people/characters?  How might this model be refined?

PLUS: Is this idea of pride truly a hinderance to destiny, or would it become its own path altogether?  In other words, when you're following a virtue and your pride rears its ugly head, do you "switch paths" and start following that pride to your fate, or does it simply act as a barrier on your journey to destiny?

[timfire]

Do you really think a player would object to missions/adventures/tasks unrelated to his or her character's destiny?

Well, if you look at The Riddle of Steel, yes -- players (generally) object to scenerios that aren't related to one of their Spiritual Attribute. (Destiny is a Spiritual Attribute in TRoS.)  But TRoS is set up so that SA's are so over-powering that to engage in a conflict without one is near suicide.

I guess you could set up a Destiny bonus that didn't have such an overpowering effect, but... I don't know. If the bonus was so minor that it could be ignored, then how does the mechanic ensure that the destiny will manifest? I mean, if I want to be king, and I finally get my chance to duel the current ruler, and then I lose because of a lousy die roll, how was that my destiny?

I would think that in order to ensure that the destiny manifests, you would need a hefty bonus. But as soon as you institute a hefty bonus, then playes are only going to want to do destiny-related stuff, so that they can gain the bonus.

My game gets around this because character "fates" is a bit of a misnomer. "Fate" in The Mountain Witch is open ended. Take the fate "your worst fear will manifest." Players use their directorial power to narrate their fear coming to life, but once that fear is manifest, all bets are off, anything can happen.

[TonyLB]

I'll go a step beyond Timothy.  He's polite.  I'm... I'm polite too... aren't I polite?

Anyway, if you (a GM) say "Tell me what you want the story to be about," and then give me something other than what I told you, I will be pissed.  There had better be a good reason for doing that.

I get it when you have to service other players, and therefore can't hit my high-points.  I even get that you have your own agenda, and it can take priority over me too.  But if you're just passing time?  Just doing missions because you think "doing missions" is what RPG is about?  Your only excuse for that would be 'nobody told me what they wanted, so I had to guess.'  Once I tell you what I want, you can't claim ignorance any more.

[Valamir]

Here's a Destiny mechanic I'll throw on the table as an idea generator.  I list the bonuses as simple +1, +2...convert to the equivelent in your system as needed.

All characters start with a Destiny at +1.

The player, in conjunction with the GM and other players during group character creation establish what the Destiny is about in a general sense "To become king", "to find the 6 fingered man who killed my father", "To become the greatest swordsman in the land", whatever.

At any point, at any time, for any reason the player (and only the player) can decide that a particular situation is part of their Destiny and lay claim to the bonus (initially +1).  Depending on the structure of your game, this could be done per roll, or per scene with the bonus accrueing to all rolls in a scene.  The player must be able to describe in a brief narration how this particular event ties to their Destiny.

Each time the player does this he earns 1 Fate.  Fate represents the Universe taking notice.  You're making waves and the forces of Karma start paying attention to you.

At any point, at any time, for any reason, the GM (or potentially even another player) can take your accumulated Fate and spend it.  It should be spend in a manner to make your life more complicated.  In otherwords its spent to do "bad stuff" to the character, where "bad stuff" is defined as things that would make the character say "Oh Gods, why me?" but will make the PLAYERS say "Oh yeah...now the shit hits the fan...this is gonna be good".

After spending a certain amount of Fate on a character, that character's Destiny grows to +2...then +3...then +4...etc.

The "Bad Stuff" that comes from having Fate spent against you has a scope that increases as the Destiny increases.  At +1 Fate might involve the local priest denouncing you as a sinner in front of the community.  At +5 it might involve being put on trial as a heretic by the grand inquistor of the realm...that sort of thing.


What this does is the following:

1) It insures that Destiny is a part of your game.  Every time a player chooses to take the bonus it touches on Destiny.  Every time a player chooses to forgo the bonus they were thinking about their Destiny.  Thus Destiny is always involved in every roll just floating there under the surface even when it isn't being actively called upon.

2) It avoids all issue of predetermination or steps or a path that you've been worried about with other mechanics.  In the end, if you record all of the player's narrations when they use their Destiny you'll wind up with a wonderfully convoluted twisting path that mirrors the byzantine structure and cryptic nature of "prophecy".  

3) As the player's Destiny increases they will become notably more effective at pursueing elements related to their Destiny than they are at elements that aren't.  They'll cross a point where they'll be driving hell bent for leather to achieving that Destiny.  Or...they'll take the other route...turn aside from the path before they get to that point and leave their destiny unfilled...which also says something profound about the character (and perhaps the player as well).  After all..."If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..."

4) The GM (or even better, the other players) use Fate to drive the characters on.  By using Fate to increasingly complicate the situation you put the players in a position where they'll have trouble extracating their character without falling back on the temptation of that Destiny Bonus...and so we see how being convicted of heresy becomes part of the character's destiny as he's forced to call upon that Destiny to escape and eventually work to topple the church in order to stay alive (helped by his ever increasing Destiny bonus).  "And so it came to pass that he who was born under the Shadowed Moon fulfilled the ancient prophecy and brought low the Church of the Crimson Hand; and the land ran red with the blood of the Faithful"  Which can come about through play after starting with nothing more than "Destined for Greatness +1".


Thoughts?

[pasoliati]

Here's a Destiny mechanic I'll throw on the table as an idea generator.  I list the bonuses as simple +1, +2...convert to the equivelent in your system as needed.

Thoughts?

That is one of the greatest ideas I've ever read.

[Keith Senkowski]

Very cool Ralph.  It's funny, but I came up with a similar idea the other day, but more geared towards the tragic.  Same idea, only tied to a tragic endgame (which is loosely defined by the player at the start of play).

So the idea in my version of it is this:

Character starts with a Doom Rank 1 with a Descriptor of something general, like betrayal by loved one, or ignoble death or something.  he gets that bonus for things tied to his Doom.  Each time he draws on it the Rank increases until it hits 6.  This starts the endgame and the bonus becomes a negative at this point.  So when the GM or the Player calls for his Doom to come to the forfront of the game, he suffers the negative modifier, which brings about the Doom.

Keith

[anthony kilburn]

I like the idea, Ralph, particularly:

2) It avoids all issue of predetermination or steps or a path that you've been worried about with other mechanics. In the end, if you record all of the player's narrations when they use their Destiny you'll wind up with a wonderfully convoluted twisting path that mirrors the byzantine structure and cryptic nature of "prophecy".

No "steps" to get there, no set of preordained "goals" to make the journey simplistic.  It allows the player to have freedom.  Thus, the character makes choices about his or her destiny within the context of the game as he or she interprets this destiny.


But let me bring you back to the core of the thread.  I want this model of "destiny" and "fate" or "pride" or whatever other traits are described to apply to all people and characters.  So, I can see how this would apply to a normal hero.

Luke Skywalker, destined to become a Jedi Master, would be applying his destiny to things like using the Force, going to train with Yoda, fighting Darth Vader.  In his linear path to destiny, his bonus increased until he ended up dueling his father on the Death Star, and then became the only Jedi.  He then trained to become a master and reinstated the Jedi Order.

Neo would be using this destiny bonus to saving Morpheus and getting the hell out of the Matrix alive.  After all, he is destined to become "the One".  But why didn't be use this bonus before?  What could possibly have prevented him from using that bonus to, perhaps, prevent Morpeus from getting captured in the first place?

And what about a character like Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)?  His destiny was to bring balance to the Force.  All of the sudden, he started whooping Jedi ass and became the Sith apprentice to Emperor Palpatine.  If he was destined to balance the Force, what made him veer off track?  If he didn't change course, what made his progression cease?  Were there other values or virtues involved?

[Valamir]

Spur of the moment thoughts:

Neo would be using this destiny bonus to saving Morpheus and getting the hell out of the Matrix alive. After all, he is destined to become "the One". But why didn't be use this bonus before? What could possibly have prevented him from using that bonus to, perhaps, prevent Morpeus from getting captured in the first place?

Well, staying within the outline of the mechanic above, I would say that Neo had been using his Destiny and had been Accruing Fate.  The GM then spent that Fate to have Morpheus captured by fiat.  In other words during traditional play players may say something like "wait a minute, my guy is right down the hall...I should get a roll to hear the confrontation and attempt to burst in and stop them".  However, in this case the GM's response would be "No, this event was Fated as part of your Destiny.  It happens because its been decreed to happen, you cannot effect it".

Boom, Neo doesn't use his Destiny bonus to prevent Morpheus's capture because he can't.  Fate dictates that Morpheus will be captured...therefor Morpheus will be captured.

What makes this different from ordinary annoying piss-the-players-off GM Fiat is that the players do it to themselves.  By choosing to use that Destiny bonus they're giving the GM permission (through spending Fate) to orchestrate by Fiat events that they can't influence.  

e.g. no matter how hard the rebel troopers fight the boarding Storm Troopers, nothing will prevent Princess Leia from being captured by Vader because the GM used Fate points to orchestrate that event.

Its sort of like plot points in a programmed scenario except they're not created up front and the GM doesn't have unlimited ability to do it...he can only do it to the extent that he can spend Fate Points to make it happen (by whatever price scale winds up working).

That's how'd I do it anyway.

And what about a character like Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)? His destiny was to bring balance to the Force. All of the sudden, he started whooping Jedi ass and became the Sith apprentice to Emperor Palpatine. If he was destined to balance the Force, what made him veer off track? If he didn't change course, what made his progression cease? Were there other values or virtues involved?

There's a couple of ways you could do this within the framework I outlined above.

One is to do nothing.  Since the player can call on the Destiny whenever they want as long as they narrate how it fits, Anakin's player could simply decide to start using his Destiny to bolster nasty Dark Side vengeance type stuff.  At which point the GM starts using Fate Points to censor / ostracise him from the other Jedi, deny him access to Light Force Powers or other such things...thereby Complicating Anakin's life and requiring him to continually turn to that Destiny in a sort of Spiral to the Dark Side effect during which the Destiny just naturally morphs during play.  So Anakin's Destiny was to bring balance to the Force...?  Whose to say that when wnakin turned that the Light Side wasn't the side that was too powerful...and that turning to the Dark and purging the Light Jedi wasn't exactly the sort of balance that the Destiny meant all along?

Another is to take a page from Shadows of Yesterday's Keys.  Keys are SoY's experience point system.  You pick a Key (or several) and every time you do certain things that the Key defines you get XPs.  Or you can buy off your Key...meaning you no longer have it but in exchange you get a big bonus.  For instance:  You might have the Key of Loyalty which means every time you act to demonstrate your loyalty you gain XPs...but...the temptation is always there to score a big XP boost by buying off that key by betraying whoever it is you're supposed to be loyal to.

You could do something similiar in your game.  Calling upon the Destiny Bonus will get you the indicated Bonus.  But perhaps for a brief time you can call upon a super charged bonus (2x the normal bonus, or something)  IF you set aside your destiny forever, or even more (4x the normal bonus) if you betray your destiny.

Maybe you have the Destiny "Born to be King".  At some point the character falls in love and the GM wind up using Fate to have his love abducted.  On the verge of being sacrificed to some evil dark god even the Destiny Bonus might not be enough to save his love...so the player decides to trade it in.  He forsakes his Destiny to be King forever gaining a one time (for the duration of the current situation) super bonus in order to save his Love.  Or, if even that isn't enough...he sells his own soul to the Dark God to get the even bigger super bonus...and thereby betrays his destiny by becoming the man who destroys the Kingdom he was to be king of.

Does that sorta work like you wanted?

[Sydney Freedberg]

No substantive comment, except:

Damn, I want to play this game! Somebody hurry up and write it already. I love the idea of mechanics based off temptation.

Especially this bit:

.... He forsakes his Destiny to be King forever gaining a one time (for the duration of the current situation) super bonus in order to save his Love....

Damn and hot damn.

[anthony kilburn]

One is to do nothing.  Since the player can call on the Destiny whenever they want as long as they narrate how it fits, Anakin's player could simply decide to start using his Destiny to bolster nasty Dark Side vengeance type stuff.  At which point the GM starts using Fate Points to censor / ostracise him from the other Jedi, deny him access to Light Force Powers or other such things...thereby Complicating Anakin's life and requiring him to continually turn to that Destiny in a sort of Spiral to the Dark Side effect during which the Destiny just naturally morphs during play.  So Anakin's Destiny was to bring balance to the Force...?  Whose to say that when wnakin turned that the Light Side wasn't the side that was too powerful...and that turning to the Dark and purging the Light Jedi wasn't exactly the sort of balance that the Destiny meant all along?

Ah!  So in the first example, that idea of Pride or a similar trait as I described before isn't necessary, because he causes it to happen to himself.  He begins to use his Destiny in a selfish way (vengeance), so the universe (the GM) responds by using Fate as a sort of punishment, which further distorts his perspective.  I mean, we all realize that as Darth Vader, he does bring balance to the Force and that all the Dark Side stuff was necessary.  But did he think he was still on the path of destiny at the time?

Maybe you have the Destiny "Born to be King".  At some point the character falls in love and the GM wind up using Fate to have his love abducted.  On the verge of being sacrificed to some evil dark god even the Destiny Bonus might not be enough to save his love...so the player decides to trade it in.  He forsakes his Destiny to be King forever gaining a one time (for the duration of the current situation) super bonus in order to save his Love.  Or, if even that isn't enough...he sells his own soul to the Dark God to get the even bigger super bonus...and thereby betrays his destiny by becoming the man who destroys the Kingdom he was to be king of.

It seems like the resulting Fate points would almost ensure that his Love bites the big one.  Perhaps this is good, perhaps this is bad.  Guess you shouldn't double that destiny bonus!

***

But what about multiple destinies?  Can characters have more than one destiny, either simultaneously or in succession?

[pasoliati]

And what about a character like Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)?  His destiny was to bring balance to the Force.  All of the sudden, he started whooping Jedi ass and became the Sith apprentice to Emperor Palpatine.  If he was destined to balance the Force, what made him veer off track?  If he didn't change course, what made his progression cease?  Were there other values or virtues involved?

Just a very tiny aside, but Anakin fulfills his destiny of bringing balance to the Force.  1000 Jedi vs 2 Sith all the way down to 1 Jedi vs 2 Sith.

If the destiny is worded vague enough and if the players understand and decide to go with the idea of destiny instead of fighting it, almost anything can seem like a justified outcome.

((Two posts in one day.  One thread even.  They are going to revoke my lurker's licence.))