playing PARANOIA ish setting... tips on rule's gimicks

[Doren]

I got Uni a few weeks ago but unfortunatly I have yet to convince any of my friends (or so called friends) to give it a try. Partly its because its almost the end of the Semester so we got a lot of work. But even still one of them (who is the main gamer) is really against the whole "NO GM" thing. He is convinced he won't like the system. His girlfriend has somewhat of an RPG stigma and my other friends are not so much into RPGs at all. I try to explain to them its not actually an RPG and that turns my first friend off and the others follow him and go play poker instead (We haven't had a real RPG group since the girlfriends hit the scene)

But the other day my frind finds out bout this game Paranoia (apparantly a classic RPG check a rpg net review at http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10725.phtml ). I read a lot about it. Now I am not against playing that system, as a matter of fact it sounds really cool and I may buy the book just cus, but I still want to get my friends to at least give the Uni waters a test swim.

So really I have three questions. One, how can I aliviate my one friends "NO GM" fears that the game will have no "predefined setting that has at least some thought in it, you get made up on the fly inconsistancies and situations where nobody can think of anything and so on."

Two, how can I (hopefully at the same time) allivatie my other friends' anti RPG stigmas.

And three, for anyone who has played PARANOIA, how would you rule's gimmick a UNI game to give it a PARANOIA ish feel. I would imagine a lot of use of the Enigma Traits would be in order, but what else?

Any suggestions or commiserations are appreciated. Mostly I am just frustrated that none of my friends (or so called friends) will be open minded enough to give UNI a try, so its nice to just let off some steam.

[Trevis Martin]

Hi Doren, welcome to the Forge! Glad to meet you.

So this is a dead set "Hey guys, I got this game and I'd really like to try it out, will you try it with me?" and a "No" in response?  If so that's pretty tough.  Maybe you have some non-gamer freinds, just a couple, that will give it a spin with you?  

Another possibility is to agree to try the Paranoia game if they'll agree to try Uni with you.  I mean, hey, its not like it a campaign system (though it could be.)  Most uni games I've ever heard of are only one or two sessions long. (Except the UniWiki of course)  

If they flat refuse then well, I don't know.  Its perhaps not very helpful but very obvious to suggest that you try it with some other freinds.

As for playing the paranoia ish bent with Uni.  Hmmm.   Well you can just propose during the tenet phase that it takes place in a dystopian underground facility controlled by a computer.  That ought to get you started anyway.

anyone else?  Suggestions for Doren?

best

Trevis

[Stickman]

Two things spring to mind straight off..

1) Paranoia, or at least the old WEG version I used to play and love, had a quick turnaround for PC's. If you hadn't died at least once by ..oh .. scene 2 or 3 of a session, well the other players were practically forced to finish you off :) Each 'character' is the first of six possible clones. So you'll need a rule gimmick to cover cloning, quite possibly using Master Components for each PC? Having some story mechanism of when clones get sent out, and how the master gets 'updated' will be in order I guess.

2) A strong part of all Paranoia stories tends to be the Computer. If you made the computer a Component with a rules gimmick about it only being controlled by one Player, that sort of gives you a psuedo-GM role, at least as far as handing out missions and so forth.

As far as spirit of play goes, Paranoia has a vibe of the PC's being expendable pawns who know nothing, being forced through bizarre missions by a totalitarian meglomaniac computer and then being used and abused by various fruitloop cults and secret societies. It practically calls for the players themselves to know very little and go along, lamb-like with the story (execpt when clone number 4 of 6 turns out to be suffering from Rambo-syndrome and goes on a murderous killing spree). If the players have too much control over the story and general game, then thngs might get very strange, and vertainly diverge from 'standard' Paranoia.

I guess it'd be like running Call of Cthulu with Uni, anyone done anything like that?

[Mike Holmes]

One, how can I aliviate my one friends "NO GM" fears that the game will have no "predefined setting that has at least some thought in it, you get made up on the fly inconsistancies and situations where nobody can think of anything and so on."

How did they get these ideas in the first place? I mean, I'd like to know how the conversation went. Was it anything like this?

You: I want to play this new game, Universalis.
Pal: What's it about?
You: Well, you just make up stuff like in a RPG, but there's no GM.
Pal: How can you have a RPG with no GM?
You: Well, everyone just makes stuff up.
Pal: What's the setting?
You: There isn't one, you make that up, too.
Pal: So what's the game itself do if it has no setting and no GM?
You: Well you have these coins with which you buy things.
Pal: But what if nobody has an idea of what to do?
You: Well...

Was it anything like that? Here's what to do. Play the game solo. Yeah, it doesn't really work solo all that well, but give it a try anyhow. Learn the rules and how it works. Then do the conversation with the next group like this.

You: I want to play this new game, Universalis.
Pal: What's it about?
You: Well players take turns telling a collaborative story.
Pal: What if somebody disagrees with somebody else?
You: There are mechanics to handle that and how you build the world of the game, etc.
Pal: I don't get it.
You: Well, let me show you how, let's play a scene.

See the difference? Don't talk to them about how it's similar but different from what they know. Explain what it is. The former confuses everyone. The latter everyone gets.

Too late now, I take it?

Two, how can I (hopefully at the same time) allivatie my other friends' anti RPG stigmas.

Well, you can tell them that Universalis is not a roleplaying game, but a collaborative storytelling game. :-)

But that's probably too late again?

It's probably difficult to impossible, but if you're at school, maybe not...run a game where they can observe it. Play something really cool, and run it well and confidently. If they can then say that they're not interested, well, they're really not interested. Not a stigma in this case, but a real preference. Some people just don't like to play RPGs, and there's really nothing to be done about it. If you have a friend who plays golf, but you don't go with him because you don't like the game, is that a stigma or a preference?

And three, for anyone who has played PARANOIA, how would you rule's gimmick a UNI game to give it a PARANOIA ish feel. I would imagine a lot of use of the Enigma Traits would be in order, but what else?

Tough call. I'd just play Paranioa, to tell the truth. The new edition is pretty good. As mentioned part of paranioa is keeping the players in the dark. You could do something Paranioa-esque with Universalis, but it would have a completely different feel to it than the regular game. Playing such a game would require few, if any, gimmicks. If you actually put enough gimmicks in to make it feel like Paranioa - well at that point I'd just play Paranoia instead.

Yes, Cthulhu, too. Creating stories like this is fun, certainly, but the sense of discovery is entirely different.

Mike

[Doren]

Thanks for the advice.

Ya, I probably didn't do the best job of describing the game, but I haddent gotten the rulebook at the time, mine took a few weeks to arrive and in the meantime I tried to get my friends interested by telling them to check out the website. I also told them about the cool features as I learned about them from reading the boards and the different essays on the website and such.

I'm not sure I origionally compared it to anything (because at the time I didn't know what it was). If anything I would have compared it to Nomic since that was origionally the way I found out about Uni, through a link from a Nomic variants site. Incidentially my friend said he wanted to play Nomic and thats when I started surfing around to find out information about it and ended up at the Uni site. Uni sounds like a hell of a lot more fun than Nomic, to me at least. He lost interest in Nomic in the end, THEN the other day he comes to me talking about PARANOIA... shesh.

Anyway, it will all work out I think since he has agreed to play at least a game or two of Uni as long as I join the PARANOIA or Shadowrun game he wants to run (he hasn't decided which yet)... which is fine with me because I love all games! heheh... So we will probably just play those settings with their rules.

The only reason I wanted to adopt Uni for it was because I was desparate to get people to play, I have been sitting here with my Uni rulebook for nearly a month and no-one to play with. Even still, a paranoia flavored Uni game sounds cool too. Summers comming up, so hopefully we'll have a chance to do both and then some.

And if my one friend plays I'm sure the rest will join because, well, we always hang out at his appartment and they will have nothing better to do.

[Valamir]

The best advice I can give you will be for when you finally do get to play.  Playing with disinterested "ok if we have to" gamers is not an ideal enviroment for successful Uni play.  BUT if you're going to give it a shot there are a few pointers I can give you.

First.  Be REALLY familiar with the rules.  In a game (any game) where everyone is jonesing to play you can get away with a "look things us as we go" approach.  But if the other players are only half interested...pausing play to do rules searches is a sure way to lose them altogether.  Know the rules yourself well, and BS your way through any rough spots.  If you feel guilty about a rule you don't remember perfectly, just make it close enough, consider it a gimmick, and move on.

Second.  There's some good advice on the web page on "Getting Started".  That approach to teaching the game is how I've gotten through dozens of demos and actually generated the kernal of some meaty stories in under an hour of play.

Third.  Whatever you do...don't play tired.  You know that point in the evening when everyone is only half concious but not ready to call it a night then.  DON'T play then.  Even if THEY suggest...DON'T play then.  For players who are into Uni and what it represents that overtired, caffeine wired, half concious state can actually produce some really cool trippy play.  For players as you've described them...it will only confirm their fears of the game.  You want to play when they're hyped or jazzed.  

Four:  A specific recommendation for your situation.  Do a group matinee to some fun / exotic / action / drama movie that you're jazzed about as a group and plan in advance with the group that you'll be playing Uni afterward.  If your friends are anything like mine, the creative juices are flowing when you get out of a movie you all really liked, and instead of killing an hour rapping about this scene or that scene or "wasn't that cool when..." channel that into a game of Uni...and don't be surprised if the game takes on flavor from the movie.

Five:  Introducing Uni to a group is a balancing act.  You need to come prepared yourself to play and be prepared to take charge and give the game guidance and a kick in the ass when it falters.  Ideally, it won't falter, but if it does, you...as the person who really wants to play...have to be willing to take the ball.  Don't challenge and obstruct honest contributions (even if they violate your vision, its counterproductive when introducing the game.  Its more important THEY'RE excited by it than you).  Don't play the kibbitzer throwing out suggestions from the side lines (Uni is a game where the System and mechanics are REALLY important.  Make sure you contribute according to the rules because by playing properly yourself you'll teach the game better).  Take your time and don't intrude on a player who is on a roll..BUT...be prepared to pick up the slack if people start passing and looking uncertain.  Complicate the SHIT out of things.  Look for opportunites where 1 guy has Control of one Character and another guy has Control of another character and you take Control of a third party and mess with one of them.  Bam...out come the dice...players have a vested interest in the character they're controlling...and all of the sudden pieces start clicking.


If you bring your A game to the table and pick the right time to play when everybody's energy level is high you'll have the best chance of making believers out of them.

[Doren]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys... I really like that movie idea... maybe when episode III comes out I will try and capture that lightsaber energy in a bottle...

One other question/concern. I am worried about keeping track of components/traits/events etc., especially on the first go around. I have gotten multi colored index cards and tried writing stuff out by myself, but keeping track of events and traits and such seems complicated, and thats when I know what I am thinking, I can't imagine trying to record other people's traits on the fly especially when it is their first time and they really don't know the system so they are just saying things without knowing exactly what it applies to or what it costs. It seems pauses while figuring out costs/writing stuff down could really slow down play just like constant rules lookups (and it dosen't help I have horriable writing skills and so must often write slow to make it legiable)... any hints/suggestions?

And a slightly related topic, I know that events cost coin, but should they be recoreded as dilligently as other components? Are events inteded to be drawn upon for complications? I gues I am just having trouble imagining how events work overall, since it makes no sense to record such things as "Daraak slaps the princess in the face" or "the General shoots his rifle into the air to get everyone's attention" or "the outlaws slip into the darkness and flee" (perhaps those are just color but it seems there are situations where events such as those clearly should be paid for but which are so ephemeral that recording them as traits somewhere seems wrong)... where as something like "Daraak throws a grapling hook and rope to the top of the tower" is clearly an event, but functionally serves as a trait of the location-Tower.

Sorry to be so tangential and change the topic, I guess I have had too much time thinking about how to play and not enough time actually expirencing play... I'm gonna read through the rulebook a few more times.............

[Trevis Martin]

We usually only write down components and tenets, not events or scenes.  Unless you want to keep a record of the game by recording whole scenes on a card.

On index cards, when we play I use multi colors too.  One for Characters, one for Locations, one for Props and one for Master components.

Traits tend to be short and not need much to write them down (they're usually a word or two.)  We've never had much trouble writing them down as we play.  In tabletop play we don't track who spent the coin for a trait, just the trait itself.

Cost is really pretty easy.  Pretty much everything costs one coin.  The only exception to that I can think of is setting a scene in the future, which costs 1 coin for every player at the table.

best

Trevis

[GreatWolf]

In my limited Uni experience, I've found that index cards work quite well for Components.  Uncontrolled Components then just sit in the middle of the table, and whoever controls the Component takes the card and puts it in front of himself.  He can then write down additional Traits on the card when he pays for them.  I usually also note the Importance in the upper right-hand corner.

As far as convincing your group to play, I'm going to generally agree with everything that Ralph has said.  I'm going to add one more factor:  give Paranoia XP a shot.  Really.  First, as Mike noted, it really is a good game.  I own it and I'd love to play it.  There are some enjoyable metagame "screw-your-opponents" aspects to the game which are very cool.  Second, if you demonstrate your willingness to try Paranoia, your friend may be more willing to give your game a whirl.  Just another thought.

[Valamir]

One other question/concern. I am worried about keeping track of components/traits/events etc., especially on the first go around. I have gotten multi colored index cards and tried writing stuff out by myself, but keeping track of events and traits and such seems complicated, and thats when I know what I am thinking, I can't imagine trying to record other people's traits on the fly especially when it is their first time and they really don't know the system so they are just saying things without knowing exactly what it applies to or what it costs. It seems pauses while figuring out costs/writing stuff down could really slow down play just like constant rules lookups (and it dosen't help I have horriable writing skills and so must often write slow to make it legiable)... any hints/suggestions?

Honestly for me...as cool as the multi color index cards are...I find the easiest thing is ye olde spiral bound notebook.  I make 1 person the record keeper (usually me if I'm teaching the game) and I just scribble.

Typically I'll record by scene with each scene taking maybe a third of a page.  I'll write something like "Scene 1:  The Docks, Jones and Hallibrand are there having a secret meeting" on the first line.

In this case "Having a Secret Meeting" was an event that got paid for and I'll jot it down.  (actually in practice my scrawl will more likely be "1:  Docks, Jones, Hallibrand, Secret Meeting".

Below that I'll put "Docks"  "Jones"  and "Hallibrand" across on one line as new Components and then I'll add traits as they get added below each.

If more Components get added I'll skip down a few lines to leave room and add them in the same way.

I'll usually use a line or two to jot events mostly from a memory job perspective...It will wind up looking like "fighting, about money, deal gone bad, Jones pulls a gun.

If There's a Complication I'll try to record some notes about that for posterity (and future write ups) where I'll generally give each side 1 line and then just list out the Traits that get called.


For future scenes, just repeat.  As Traits get added to preexisting Components, I'll just flip back to the scene where they were first recorded and add them there.  Most players can keep the basic Traits for characters in their heads for purposes of regular play or the occassional Challenge.  For Complications where getting the Traits accurate is more important I'll just pass the notebook around as we go around the table building dice pools so everyone can see what traits there are.  I usually wind up adding Master Components and Gimmicks and such in the Margins.

A whole session never fills up more than 3 pages for me if you write small.  Afterwards if you're going to revisit the same game it's a good idea to rewrite the Components up neater and more organized, (maybe use the cards then) but during play...I just write really fast.  It becomes second nature after awhile.  

And a slightly related topic, I know that events cost coin, but should they be recoreded as dilligently as other components? Are events inteded to be drawn upon for complications? I gues I am just having trouble imagining how events work overall, since it makes no sense to record such things as "Daraak slaps the princess in the face" or "the General shoots his rifle into the air to get everyone's attention" or "the outlaws slip into the darkness and flee" (perhaps those are just color but it seems there are situations where events such as those clearly should be paid for but which are so ephemeral that recording them as traits somewhere seems wrong)... where as something like "Daraak throws a grapling hook and rope to the top of the tower" is clearly an event, but functionally serves as a trait of the location-Tower.

My event recording generally tends to be pretty hit or miss.  I'll hit the highlights like "Joe shoots Bob" because that might be a Fact someone wants to refer to later on.  But something like "Bob ducks for cover" which will be completely immaterial (usually) after the scene is over I'll generally not record because everyone can remember for 1 scene.  "Bob ducks for cover like a craven coward" however, is probably worth jotting down...potentially as a Trait for Bob.

Essentially an Event is just a Fact attached to a scene the same way that a Trait is a Fact attached to a Component or a Tenet is a Fact attached to the Game itself.  If one wanted to streamline the Uni rules one could simply dump Trait, Tenet, and Event as Terms and just talk solely about attaching Facts to different stuff.  I felt that it was easier to understand how to play if the Facts were parsed into more readily recognizeable pieces.  But essentially they all work the same.

One can even see how buying Coins in a Complication is essentially the same as buying an Event for the Scene and then Activating that Event for a die just like activating a Trait.  Even Events like "Joe shoots Bob" could be Activated for a die in a Complication where a player wants to demonstrate how Bob not trusting Joe (because he shot him) would be an advantage.  After all one could simply create "Shot by Joe" as a Trait for Bob.  

After awhile it becomes pretty second nature to realize that Facts are pretty much interchangeable.

[Mike Holmes]

All I ever record is traits for components and general facts. Facts I just list in one column. For components, I put down the component name, and then add traits indented. Then when I run out of space between components, I just add another column of traits. I rarely find that events become important to challenges. Which is why you'll find in my play that I pay for so few of them (or, rather, I pay for big clusters of them). I'm simply not all that worried about people doing something that will mess up past events. If they do, I can still challenge, and even if I can't prove that I've paid a Coin for it, usually an appeal to continuity does the trick.

The same is sorta true for traits. I think that people who don't play think that traits get created fast and thick. They don't. You might see whole scenes go by without so much as one trait being created. When complications occur, traits can start to come pretty quickly. But you always have a signal to record them - when they're paid for. Do not assume that something is a trait and write it down. Wait for the player to pay for it. If they do not, then it doesn't get written down.

That's important. The rules do not say that you record every event or every component - only the ones that are paid for. The other color events and traits are not unimportant. But they'll be included into the narrative optionally, and simply have no weight mechanically. That's fine, and expected. At some point what constitutes a trait, fact, or event is a subjective call backed by the expenditure of Coins. If you want to be a nit-picker, and try to sort out every little detail as an event or trait or fact, you can - but it'll slow down the game tremendously, drain your coins to depletion, and not be much fun. What you have to do is to allow a significant amount of what goes on to be "color" and only record things that people think are important.

As with a lot of Universalis, how this is determined for your group is by trial and error. At some point just don't pay for something. Push your luck. See if somebody challenges. If they don't, then you've gotten your narration without paying for it. As soon as somebody challenges, that'll start to establish the group's criteria for what should be paid for and what not. This process continues until everyone has a good idea of what "counts" and needs to be paid for.

But the key is simply that something not paid for has no particular mechanical significance. If you want to "protect" a fact (or "scene fact" AKA event), pay for it. If you want to get a payoff from an investment in a trait, pay for it. If neither of these apply...maybe don't.

You'll find that what happens in practice is that the rate at which events and traits that need to be recorded come up is actually pretty handleable. The one place where you may have to ask people to slow down a little is when recording during complications. When you have two newish components up against each other, but it turns out that people are more invested in them than their low importance would appear. Then you can see a dozen traits suddenly appear. But just ask folks to slow down a pay for stuff as you finish recording, and it's fine. That's over quickly, and then you're back to a more leisurely rate of recording.

Mike