Perpetuating Sing-Sex Play Groups

[M. J. Young]

One of these days I'd like to see someone address the issue of why gamers perpetuate the existance of single sex play groups. That to me seems to be a more interesting issue.

I was surprised no one picked up that gauntlet, so I'm opening a thread to field a few ideas.

My first gaming group was all post-college aged, and rather evenly mixed most of the time--most of the people who played came as couples, really. Based on this early experience, I was unaware of the disparity in the hobby.

The second major group really was me running a game for neighborhood kids. These guys were almost all in high school. Some had girlfriends, some didn't; but very few girls ever joined us, and those who did were always sisters, not girlfriends, and generally not friends. However, one had the impression that this was because these people tended to hang out together, and D&D was the thing they were doing now instead of playing hunter on the golf course or scraping up money for the movies. (It was not feasible to get to the mall without a car.) Thus, although I sometimes suggested that other girls come, it didn't strike me as peculiar that few ever did.

Later groups have been composed primarily of gamers I already knew; and since that first group had scattered to the four winds and the second group was almost entirely guys, that meant predominantly guys in the groups. (It also makes a difference that my children are all old enough to play and enjoy doing so, and that means five guys plus me right there.)

At the same time, for many of the couples that did play, the guys were usually the more enthusiastic of the twosome; and in the one case in which a couple broke up, it was the guy who continued to play with us even though the girl was the one we had known before we started playing. Of course, those games were all D&D, and that would have some impact on the appeal.

Let me suggest a thought based on an observation. My wife and her friend liked to do a lot of roleplay things that in some ways were color--deciding what the horses looked like, creating backstories for non-player characters, shopping at bazaars and street markets and junk shops, sampling the cuisine of other races. The guys tended to focus more on things that were more adventure-oriented--exploring the dungeons, killing the monsters, getting the treasure, acquiring magic items. Even in what might be thought "less gamist" aspects, the guys were somewhat more aggressive, playing through character arguments and personality clashes, planning their empires, building their fortresses. Thus there is this tension between the hopes of guys versus girls as a very broad generalization.

I've also noticed in many social situations a tendency for girls to defer to guys, particularly to guys to whom they're "connected" (married, dating, whatever). Thus guys often are greenlighted to pursue what interests them ("As long as you're having fun"). This would suggest that in a lot of such groups, the guys are pushing forward what they think is fun and the girls are letting them do it, but not enjoying it so much--but the guys are oblivious to this, as it looks like all the other guys are having fun, so what's wrong with the girls?

Guys then draw the erroneous conclusion that girls don't like role playing games, when actually they don't like the agendum pushed by the guys.

I know there's some gross stereotyping going on in this post, but it's the first idea that occurred to me when I turned my mind to the question, and at least it gives a starting point for discussion.

--M. J. Young

[Mike Holmes]

I can't see how this is any mystery. Men and women are different. Even if it's only based on inculturation into sex-roles. You might as well ask why guys like action flicks, and girls like chick-flicks. Well, the key fact is that they do.

People hang out and do stuff most with people who have the same interests. This means that guys often hang out with guys when going to see movies. Why should it be any different with RPGs?

As I've said before, I'm not putting a value on this either way. It just seems to be a very simple phenomenon to me.

Mike

[xenopulse]

I started playing with my friends when we were 13. We just didn't hang out with girls at that age (my German cultural experience is different from what I observe with my own 12-year-old here in the States, who now asks me if he can go on dates with girls to the movies, mainly because that's "what everybody does"). We didn't really know any girls well enough until age 16 and up, and then we had different ways of socializing with them and were deeply entrenched in our little group (we never added any other guys, either).

Women came into my roleplaying life when I started playing freeform chat online (at age 18), and I was blown away by the sheer amount of female players there as well as the different quality that gaming suddenly acquired.

That's just my anecdotal data point. In conclusion, it all depended on our little circle, which stayed the same more or less from the start. Once I entered a different environment, it was all changed.

[Callan S.]

Why aren't I allowed in my partners book club?

"Oh you could come, but it's a bit of a girls evening."

In other words, part of the evening is about the books, and part of the evening is about women enjoying and reinforcing in each other pride in their own culture.

But then again, I would say that RPG's are designed toward a male market. With the book club, I've seen the books they choose, and they are hardly "Kill orcs/space aliens" stuff. The book market has plenty of books which cater to each gender culture. RPG books, IMO, don't.

[jrs]

And here I thought the gauntlet was pretty well tossed about by Mike and Ian (GameLoft).  I do not disagree with Mike's sentiments.  The point I was attempting to make is that I do not think that it's RPG texts themselves that exclude women.  

Just taking myself for a (likely atypical) example-- I've been gaming for a couple of decades now, and I never bothered actually reading a RPG rulebook until Sorcerer came along.  (And I near had conniptions when I got to p. 42 of Sorcerer & Sword.)  I learned how to participate from my fellow gamers who for the most part happened to be men; men who were invested in making me part of their group and enjoy this activity we call role-playing.  

I don't have a problem with single sex gaming groups.  I just think that looking for a rationale for why more women do not game should focus on interactions among the people gaming rather than texts.

Julie

[James Holloway]

A couple of years back (2001 maybe) there was a panel at DunDraCon on "men in gaming" to follow the "women in gaming" panel. There was a certain amount of nonsense in it, but some of the participants, Ken Hite in particular, strove, er, manfully to prevent it becoming a joke at the expense of the previous panel and actually discuss the role gaming plays or can play in the social behavior

Certainly, I think that the all-male groups I'm in or have been in serve a particular purpose in terms of peer-group construction or what have you that would be changed if we had female players.

Not that I subscribe to some essentialist "men game this way, women this way" thing. But I behave differently depending on the composition of the group I'm in; different social roles, different social contracts, different games.

[Callan S.]

Heya Julie,

I think a womans book club can start from a woman with several friends, having some books and just enjoying them so much she wants to talk about them with peers.

This is an example of a group forming from the books available. You might want to prioritise how a male group socially incorporated you, but how did that male group start? Did some guy go 'Hey, damn, this RPG is so good I've got to play with some peers!'

But what if that RPG or any on the shelf, hadn't appealed to him? Would any group have formed in the first place, to then go on to recruit you as well?

If RPG's on average are written in a male orientated way, they are not going to be 'seeding' female groups. This is the vital stage, since before social dynamics come into play, you need a group to begin with.

[jrs]

Callan,

I see your point, and you are right, if it were not for that first group (I wasn't the only one there new to gaming), I may never have learned about role-playing.  But it was their support that kept me at it.  I think that the initial inspiration that you describe has more to do with marketing than with text-- honestly, I have never felt welcome in any game store that I have been to, even when I was spending money.  

Although I was not initiated into gaming through texts, I have read games that inspired me.  The two that immediately come to mind are Dust Devils and Le Mon Mouri.  I learned about Dust Devils from the Forge; I learned about Le Mon Mouri because Ron thrust it into my hands and told me to run it.

Julie

[Bret Gillan]

Julie is on to something really significant. I mean, a lot of the time the discussion about women in roleplaying says, "There are no games for women," but I know a number of women who play and they're more than happy to play D&D or Vampire or any of the games that "the guys" play.

The significant thing I've noticed is that the women I know game primarily with other women, even when they have close male friends who are also gamers. A female friend of mine bumped me from a game of hers once in favor of another female gamer. I was never given a clear reason.

My girlfriend recently got into gaming, and it's been limited primarily to one-on-one gaming. She's not comfortably gaming with my group, even though she's as good of a friend with them as I am. Why? Her explanation is, to paraphrase her, that she's worried about them being aggressive towards her and being the lone gamer girl in the group.

Is this a marketing/game design issue that's causing the tension? Or is it the same sort of societal gender issues that has resulted in the success of Curves?

Is it just a matter discomfort with members of the opposite sex and not an issue with the games themselves?

[Gordon C. Landis]

Here's something I've come to realize from this discussion (here and in the other thread): when it comes to extended play, with perhaps one exception, every single time I've played in a mixed sex group the play has been more enjoyable for me than is usually the case in single-sex groups.  That is to say, if I were looking at the makeup of groups where I've enjoyed play the most, the most obvious thing that sticks out for me is that if there're women involved, I'm much more likely to have labeled that one of the "really good" games.  (Note: I've had some really good all male games.  I'm talkin' overall tendencies here.)

Maybe that's not true of all tastes in gameplay.  I'd be OK with the gross generalization that hardcore Gamism, for e.g., is not so likely to appeal to women.  But if what you're interested in is getting people to break out of the sinlge-sex (male, almost exclusively) RPG group, all I can think to do is point at the possibility that mixed-sex groups make the play better.

I also have a suspicion that mixed-group play experience makes single-sex group play better (for at least some tastes), but that may just be wishfull thinking on my part.

Gordon

[Judd]

I don't want to hear this hogwash that women want games with story and drama and it is the men who want the hack and slash orc-fests.

Phooey.

I have introduced two women to gaming and both times I saddled them up with characters who were brutes and they entirely loved it.  They hit things, they rolled their d20 and they took glee in the damage they inflicted.

We started playing these games when we were around 13 and it just sort of became a thing we did among other males.  Many of gamers are ashamed of what they do and don't tell others about it.  Many others are involved in groups that are entirel dysfunctional and while they manage to get enough out of it to warrant continue playing, wouldn't want to subject their girlfriend or wife to it.

Even just looking at the population of Gen Con between 2004 and the last time I went, 1994, the ratio of male to female has changed tremendously.  The pendulumn is swinging.  Many say Vampire started this.  I'm not sure.

And I think with the prevalence of geek culture in the mainstream it is continuing to do so.  We are going to see all of these Hermoine Granger acolytes grow up and what kind of games are they going to want to play?

[komradebob]

And I think with the prevalence of geek culture in the mainstream it is continuing to do so. We are going to see all of these Hermoine Granger acolytes grow up and what kind of games are they going to want to play?

If my 8 year old daughter is any indication, games involving WereTigers eating people's heads for polluting the bio-sphere...

[Mike Holmes]

I'd agree, Julie, that it has to start at the social level - if the majority men don't make playing comfortable for female players then they're not going to play. But, I guess my point is that what are we going to do about it? I mean, I hope that I'm doing my small part. And I can chastise people who I see playing in a way that's inimical to female participation. I can rant and rave here about how men should be more sensitive to their female player's needs.

But we've done all that. Is there anything else that can be done? I'm not sure there is. It sounds very much like we're being asked to figure out how to alter the sex dynamics of our entire culture to me. Tall order. I think to some extent we're just going to have to accept whatever rate of change that our culture does.

Texts, on the other hand, I do think have an effect. That is, I think that a bad text can, in fact, enable a male to be insensitive, or facilitate the creation of play that's just not interesting to women. I mean, to be obvious, a game like FATAL is just going to chase away women. Right? Now that's an exception, surely, but most other games, created by male designers, have some sort of male slant to them ranging from very subtle to complet turn-offs for female players.

Even if it's just cheesecake on the cover. Somewhere, some woman is being asked to play an RPG, seeing this cover of an Exalted supplement, and quite reasonably shaking her head and walking away.

Mike

[jrs]

But we've done all that. Is there anything else that can be done? I'm not sure there is. It sounds very much like we're being asked to figure out how to alter the sex dynamics of our entire culture to me. Tall order. I think to some extent we're just going to have to accept whatever rate of change that our culture does.

And I'm OK with that.  Really.

Julie

[James Holloway]

I mean, I hope that I'm doing my small part. And I can chastise people who I see playing in a way that's inimical to female participation.

Is a single-sex player group, always and everywhere, a bad thing?