Meta-information/systems and Narrativism in CRPGs

[Selene Tan]

This is something I've been thinking about, but haven't managed to collect my thoughts enough to write an organized essay on. So yay, semi-coherent post.

One of the things I've noticed about Narrativist games is a strong emphasis on meta-information and -systems. Argh, I can't think of a good example right now. Basically, systems where you can spend a resource to say "this is what matters to me", or where you get rewarded for addressing stuff that matters. Like Humanity in Sorcerer.
And I think this is the reason that it's really, really hard to get Nar with heavy immersion -- there's almost no meta-information of that sort for the players and GM to latch on to. So you need a really tight group and a really smart, observant GM.

At the moment, I think most CRPGs that even try to get Nar are trying to do the equivalent of getting Nar with heavy immersion and a dumb GM.

Does this seem on the right track at all, or am I totally off my rocker?

[pete_darby]

Not totally, however....

Have a look at some of the Dogs in the Vineyard actual play (or Dust Devils if you can rustle them up); absolutley bags of identification / empathy with the PC's, and bags of thematic play.

One reason is because the game is front loaded with ripe thematic goodies ready to burst in the player's faces.

"Meta" systems are a bit of a red herring as goes CA tells: they can be supportive to Gam or Nar quite easily, and certain forms of them (drama points in Buffy, frex) are there to re-inforce genre in sim supporting games.

And as for immersion; please search back on this term, especially wrt the phrase "tar-baby". It tends to be code for "intense play I like", rather than any useful determinant of what actually happened in a game.

[Selene Tan]

Gar, caught already! Try substitutituing "Actor Stance" for "Immersion" and it might make more sense.

I think what I might be trying to say is that it's really hard to get Nar when the only information being communicated is character actions rather than feelings. And the "meta-stuff" I'm trying to refer to probably indicates "stuff that's not just character actions".
And the computer attempts at Nar I've seen still keep trying to do it without "meta-stuff."

Maybe I should try sleeping and it will make more sense. ;)

[Valamir]

Selene, I thing this ties directly into Ben Lehman's recent Topics thread.

In that thread he notes that both Gamist Play and Nar play are resolved by the players.

In order to be resolved by the players the players have to be able to communicate.  If the only way for the players to communicate is via their characters than there will often be obstacles to that communication.

The benefit/function of metagame for Gam and Nar play is to better facilitate player to player communication which feeds directly into that resolution.

But do keep in mind that "metagame" isn't restricted to just mechanics like Humanity or Drama Points.  It also refers to just how the human beings at the table are relating to each other, talking to each other, reading each others non verbal cues.

The most important metagame element of all is simply paying attention to the other players verbal and non verbal cues and incorporating those signals into your own play.

And THAT is why you've noticed difficulty in getting this sort of play in a CRPG...because paying attention to the other real world player's cues is much much harder through a computer.  This is also why some folks (like Ron) will note limitations with trying to play in online chat rooms.

I will also note that I don't disagree with you pointing out immersion as another obstacle.  It is distinct from actor stance and carries with it its own issues.  Restricting yourself to only useing Actor Stance limits your ability to communicate with other players directly as noted above.  But delving deeply into a fully immersed stance also means you start missing the real world verbal and non verbal cues of the other players.  And that makes things difficult as well.

[Callan S.]

At the moment, I think most CRPGs that even try to get Nar are trying to do the equivalent of getting Nar with heavy immersion and a dumb GM.

Are you talking about multiplayer CRPG's, and how each player (including the player called the GM) communicate? For a moment I was thinking you were refering to solo CRPG play.