[D&D 3.5] Kids in the game.

[Andrew Cooper]

I ran my D&D 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign this weekend.  This is the second session since we brought in two very young players, Caitlin (9 year old girl) and Sean (10 year old boy).  They are the children of one of the other players, Trey.  My last thread garnered some good advice on adding kids to games and I followed some of it and it paid dividends.  This session was a strange dichotomy of very excellent and very disappointing play.  However, I think we've had enough instances of play now that some patterns are emerging and perhaps solutions to certain problems can be found.

There are a few things about our play that I need to address up front so that everyone knows how it works with us.

Reward Cycle - When the group or a player does something to merit XP, I award it immediately.  Defeat a group of monsters... get XP right then.  Disarm the trap and get into the castle... XP right then.  This means that my reward cycle is relatively short but the individual rewards aren't very large.

Tokens - I have a jar of about 100 blue glass beads and 1 black bead.  At the beginning of every session each player draws 3 beads.  These bead represent a +2 bonus (or -2 penalty) to any roll in the game.  Players can spend them whenever they like.  The black bead, should someone be lucky enough to draw it, is a +5.

Now for a relatively quick overview of what happened in the session.

Scene 1:  The party is back at the Prancing Pony Inn in Silverymoon and are met by a mercenary sorcerer that they know.  He's heard about the orc horde (with Frost Giant allies) that have attacked Mithral Hall and he's headed that way to take advantage of the opportunity for proffit.  He's willing to take the party along with him, if they want to go.  Catch is that he's Teleporting there and there's a limit to what he can take in number of characters.  The party decides to take him up on the offer and they choose who is going so that everyone has 1 character and 1 player has 2.  Interestingly, they left behind all the healers and instead stocked up on healing potions.

This scene accomplished two goals.  First, I got to see whether the party wanted to pursue the orc horde plot or whether they wanted to go after some of the stuff still up in the air in Silverymoon.  Second, the limited method of travel forced them to make some strategic decisions.

Concerns - Sean really wanted to take his horse which was impossible with the Teleport spell and was pushing to travel overland instead of via magic so that they could do so.  He eventually caved in after discussing it with the rest of the group.  I think his decision had a good bit to do with player/player pressure from his father.  This bothered be some but I'm unsure how to deal with it yet and it didn't end up being a big deal this time.

Scene 2:  After the Teleport, the sorcerer goes his own way and the party trudges towards Mithral Hall.  They are ambushed by a group of Orc and Bugbears while traversing the edge of a cliff.  

Good Things - Caitlin is generally pretty quiet and a little shy (not surprising).  When it came to be her turn to act, several people offered suggestions for actions with her father suggesting to stay back and use her bow.  Instead, from out of the blue, she said she wanted to cast her 1 Entangle spell at the orcs and bugbears.  Internally I said "Hell, yeah!" and sure enough that spell incapacitated about 66% of the bad guys and the party handily defeats the remaining enemies.  This is the second time in 2 sessions she's used a spell to good effect.

Not So Good Things - Sean killed two Bugbears and then decided he wanted to make a cool helmet from the skull of one of them.  This didn't surprise me since his father's Wemic character (who is a bit uncivilized) had done so with a dragon skull.  What did kind of concern me is that he decided to do this while the fight was still going on rather than waiting until the enemy was defeated.  I could tell this annoyed some of the other players too.

Scene 3:  After defeating the orcs and bugbears, the party runs into a lone Frost Giant.  This is a tough fight as the giant has the capability of KOing half the characters in the party in one shot.

Good Things - Sean has his fighter (the toughest character in the party) run forward and taunt the giant.  I thought this was a brilliant tactic for him.  His character was the only one pretty much assured to survive 2 hits from the monster and maybe even 3 hits.  His fighter also deals out a crap-load of damage with his 2 handed sword.  I had him do an opposed roll with the Giant and it worked!  The Giant goes after him and ignores everyone else.

Not So Good Things - Sean's character got hit... hard.  I mean, it's a Giant after all and he did taunt the thing.  It does a lot of damage.  As soon as this happened, he tried to run away, wasting 2 rounds trying to escape when he could have been beating up on the Giant.  This happened last session too.  If his character takes damage he immediately goes into "survival mode" or something.  He does this despite having a very, very effective fighter character who can pretty much dish it out and take it quite well.

Scene 4:  The party sees a plume of dust coming from the north.  They investigate and they see a large battle between orcs and dwarves with the dwarves trying to set up defensive lines between the mountains and the river to the east.  They note that at one location the dwarves are being pressed hard.  A large number of orcs and 2 Frost Giants are attacking a group of dwarves and 2 humans.  The party comes in to the rescue.

Good Things - Caitlin sees one of the NPC humans get pummeled by giants throwing boulders and has her eagle animal companion take the NPC a potion of healing.  Nobody suggested this tactic to her.  She just did it.  It showed some pretty creative thinking about how to employ her character's resources.  I liked it.

Not So Good Things - Sean seemed to hang on to his reluctance to enter into combat from the last scene.  He had his fighter throw a dagger at a giant and miss.  Then he decided to go find the dagger instead of continuing the fight.  He wanted to do this despite the party telling him that daggers are a dime a dozen and he could get another one after the battle.  His father exerted some pressure on him and he stayed in the battle instead.  Once again, this bothered me but I'm not sure the group could have survived if he hadn't stuck around.  After all, he is the tank of the group.

That was the last scene.

I have a couple of concerns.  First, I'm concerned about Trey putting pressure on Sean to have his character do (or not do) certain things.  He wouldn't do that to one of the adults at the table and I don't think he'd do it if Sean wasn't his son.  Anyone else have fathers and sons play at the same table before?  Anyone have this type of issue come up?  Suggestions on dealing with it would be appreciated.

Second, Sean has a tendency to turtle up after taking any damage whatsoever.  I'm seeing this as an issue of him wanting his character to be cool and that getting hit and taking damage to him is definately "uncool".  The problem is that his character is only cool when in the middle of the fray, duking it out with the bad guys.  He's a melee stud in heavy armor with a metric shit-ton of hit points.  The fact that he can take that much damage and still remain standing IS cool.  Anyone have suggestions on how I can get this point across to Sean?  He does fine on the mechanics of the game and this seems to be the only real sticking point with his play.

[ffilz]

I share your concern with children and parents playing in a game together. In my Arcana Unearthed campaign last year, we had two children playing. One was the daughter of a male player, the other was the son of a female player. The daughter never really came out of her shell. The son definitely engaged, but his mother is very much into empowering her child, she also was only present for about 1/2 the sessions (which raised some concerns about "babysitting"). Sadly, our culture really discourages child empowerment in adult partnership.

Some thoughts on your specific instances: It sounds like you did a real good job of rewarding Caitlin for initiative, but you need to look at what's happening with Sean.

The teleport issue may have put him in a shell. How much did it really matter that strict interpretation of the rules didn't allow the horse to come along? Could you have empowered the player in this circumstance?

On the bugbear helmet deal, I see a couple ways to handle it. First, if that kind of thing cheapens the game too much for you and your players, you need to gently break that to the player, realizing you're shutting them down. You could point out that it's going to take an hour of careful work to make the helmet. Now if you don't find such a thing cheapening, and want to empower the player, make him spend a round making the helmet, and then immediately give him a bonus against the rest of the bugbears.

As to Sean's turtling: have you played pretty hardnosed on damage and going down? Is his father giving him signals? If you want players to hang in there and tough it out, you need to make sure the reward isn't to get bashed into oblivion. In my AU campaign, we had a similar situation, the boy had a tank, and got frustrated because he sucked up a lot of damage. I didn't really do a good job of pointing out that he was the perfect character to suck up the damage. I wish I could have handled that better.

Hmm, one thought: really get into the fact that D&D hit points do not represent abuse done to the body. Describe the apparently crushing blow from the giant, which takes a chunk of his hit points away as him deflecting the main force of the blow, although it causes him to stagger, where everyone expected the blow to crush him to a bloody pulp (because that's what would have happened to them with the same damage roll). Describe the coolness of his hit points allowing him to absorb that blow and still keep on ticking (and that isn't a bad image to bring up if Timex adds today are what they were like in the past - certainly to me, describing a blow as "he takes a licking and keeps on ticking" would be a phrase that confers instant coolness - I don't even need a graphic description because of the images that phrase brings to mind).

Frank

[droog]

I think Sean is acting quite normally for a 10-year-old. Is he active or passive in real life? Does he read the sorts of books and see the sorts of films that would lead him towards playing the action hero? You might want to point out scenes from his favourite stuff where X takes damage and comes back fighting. Or you might want to think about a different sort of character for him. Caitlin's seems ideal for her: she gets to do things in cool kid-book ways without taking too much physical risk (often how kid-books work). Maybe Sean needs more guidance for his fantasy-fulfillment.

Kids want to start on projects right away and have little concept of time. Just be patient and say 'Look, Sean, the others are still fighting and they could be in danger--you sure you want to spend all that time with the helmet? You can do it later, you know?'

Also, shut his father up. And he should think about it: if Dad kills things and makes their skulls into helmets, the boy is going to follow.

I don't personally approve of putting children into games of this sort. I think it's too violent. Also, by the sounds of it, the kids may need a more free environment to express their creativity.

[Andrew Cooper]

droog,

I agree.  Sean is acting normally for a 10 year old.  I forgot to mention this before but he tends to want to cheat with his dice rolling too.  I don't mean to make that sound like a horrible sin but it indicated to me that he wants to always succeed and never be at risk.  I think that is a normal kid thing.  However, a role-playing game seems like a pretty safe environment to start learning that a little risk can be exciting and fun and that winning when there is an element of risk is a lot more satisfying.  Thus I'm looking for constructive ways to coax him into that type of play.  I don't expect it to happen overnight.  He is just 10 years old, after all.

droog and Frank,

I do think I'm going to have to have a talk with the father.  Fortunately he is one of my best friends and I feel like I can do that without upsetting him.  In order for the game to work with the kids, I think they need to be players just like everyone else with the same rights and priveledges.  I think Trey feels the same.  I'll bet he just hasn't thought about what he's been doing.  Just bringing it to his attention might alleviate the problem.

I believe you are right about Caitlin's character being ideal for her.  I hadn't thought about her not being in direct danger before.  Although she did take a lot of damage in the fight against the orcs and bugbears.  She just doesn't seem to react to the damage in the same way as Sean.

What I'd like to do is start rewarding Sean in some way for playing his character effectively so that he can stop worrying too much about getting his clock cleaned.  Because as tough as his guy is, it isn't going to happen often anyways.  I'm thinking about modifying my Tokens a bit.  Let everyone draw 1 at the beginning of the session and then reward them with additional tokens when they do something smart or neat.  Sort of a non-XP reward for in-game coolness.   Sean does love to spend those Tokens, so it'd be a good reward for him.  He spent all 3 of his on the first Scene. Heh.

[Valamir]

I wouldn't get discouraged, I think the issues you bring up are (at least from your discription) hardly game breaking.  I offer the following suggestions / remarks.

You said:

When the group or a player does something to merit XP, I award it immediately.

and

Good Things - Caitlin is generally pretty quiet and a little shy (not surprising).... <snip>  This is the second time in 2 sessions she's used a spell to good effect.

and

Good Things - Caitlin ...<snip>Nobody suggested this tactic to her. She just did it. It showed some pretty creative thinking about how to employ her character's resources. I liked it.

So did you like it enough to give her XPs for it...right then and there?  I hope you did because those were two perfect opportunities for it.  What better way in D&D to show a shy player that their contributions are not only acceptable but REALLY cool...BAM...here's 1000 XPs (and I'd make it a significant amount too, way more than just rolling good to disarm a trap).   This has the dual benefit of giving Caitlin some nice encouragement AND demonstrating to Sean that innovative, interesting, and helpful behavior get rewarded.


Secondly with regards to Sean's turtling.  Oldest solution in the D&D handbook.  Stop describing damage as damage.  Sean's fighter did NOT get hit and hit hard.  If a human being got hit hard by a creature the size of a Frost Giant he'd be D-E-A-D dead.  The fighter DODGED the blow and felt the whistle of it as it whizzed harmlessly past.  He threw himself on the ground, did a double sumersault and came up the other side with sword at the ready.  He jumped over the swinging club as it rushed past...or what ever other Xena and Hercules fighting move you can come up with...or better yet, let him come up with.  The cost for dodging out of the way...spending some Hit Points.  Hit Points are the points you spend to keep your character from getting hit.  When you run out of hit points...you get hit...and then you die (or go negative and start bleeding or whatever system you use).  

That way Sean looks super guy cool, and more he gets beat on, the cooler he looks because he's describing all of these great moves (and if he's ever played Mortal Combat or Soul Caliber or the like he probably can describe all kinds of great moves).


The only other suggestion I have is to have a conversation with Sean and make sure he understands that while he's sitting around the table playing HE is in control of his character's action and his father is just another player and doesn't have any control over Sean's character.  I'd have that conversation with the father first, but assuming he's agreeable, I'd look to drive that home with Sean ASAP.

[droog]

Apart from teaching him that risk can be exciting, you're also teaching basic standards of fair play and gamesmanship. I would suggest that everybody including the GM rolls all dice prominently, in the open, if you want to set a real example.

I would also like to suggest that you give some thought to trying a different game specifically for the kids (I know it's easier said than done). My specific recommendation would be HeroQuest, for the following reasons:

1. It's easier to do things that don't involve combat.
2. It flows more easily and allows for a great deal of creativity (esp. in chargen).
3. Characters don't 'take damage', they win/lose in a single roll (assuming simple contests). Defeat can be fun too. Death doesn't happen unless you're up for it.
4. It's more usable if you want to teach some social stuff like the value of relationships, or belief systems, or having a cause.
5. It's highly playable in a narrativist style where the GM can riff off the players' ideas. This will help the kids create their own stories, rather than following the GM's.

[contracycle]

This may be out of left field, but I'm inclined to think that being a frontline combatant is not the place for kids.

What I mean by this is that many societies have used children on the battlefield, but mainly as scouts and skmirmishers (and indeed, Baden-Powells Scouting organisaiton shows this in a modern context).  I would expect that a 10-year old has not yet had the big dose of hormones that comes with adolesence and triggers greater aggression and confrontational behaviour.  It may be entirely right that when suffering injury, a 10-year old runs away.

Possibly, a scouting/skirmishing type role, like that of a thief, would be more viable.  This still allows the kid to get close to danger, but also to leave when it gets hot.

[Callan S.]

Ralph's perceptual shift is excellent.

Also, cheer him when he takes damage. Encourage others who wouldn't be able to take the blow, to show their appreciation of him taking it for them.

And give him some crap when he runs away "Well, I guess you can't handle it", "Mmm, I thought the other players were better at this game than you.". Human feedback.

I can almost hear the cries of rage at that suggestion "Our children don't need to have such things thrust upon them!". Well, why is he in a game designed for it?

[Stickman]

It's natural for new players to be overly cautious and unwilling to risk thier character .. the first one feels a lot more important than when you've made hundreds over the years.

It sounds like the fighter is taking a pretty rational approach and saying "hey, I've got 50 hit points overall and one blow just took 30 off, I'd better not go toe to toe on this one". It's the right call. Let him experience the more tactical approach to combat, skirmishing, using his speed and fighting defensively. This way he gets to evaluate risks and consider different solutions.

I'd also agree with the suggestion of giving them all more narrative encouragement, and indeed ad hoc bonuses for interesting or 'cool' play.

[droog]

This may be out of left field, but I'm inclined to think that being a frontline combatant is not the place for kids.

I don't think it's out of left field at all. It's what I meant when I said that the basic situation is too violent. The default position in D&D is 'off to fight the monsters'. The party goes off and faces challenge (mostly in the form of combat). The game is built for that.

But let's look at kid's literature. Sticking with fantasy/history, books like The Sword in the Stone aren't about wading into combat. My personal pick for children's 'fantasy' book of all time would be A Wizard of Earthsea. No physical combat (and not a few moral questions). Taran in the Prydain books spends most of his time avoiding combat. An old book of mine, The Gauntlet by Ronald Welch (1958), reaches its pitch of excitement when the boy has to sneak through the enemy lines to help relieve a siege. Viking's Dawn by Henry Treece has a boy who witnesses a lot, participates in many adventures, but doesn't fight at all. Another oldie has a medieval boy going on the road to find his minstrel father. And so on. They're never about gearing up and going to bash the monsters.

As a parent and educator, I would prefer to see children being involved in games that are more social, more educational and more about narratives. Something like what Ron Edwards has talked about with regard to Pokemon Sorcerer, for instance. More democratic, too. There was a long thread at rpg.net, which unfortunately I cannot find, that told about Ian Young's experiences with HQ for his five-year-old son. One lesson I drew from it was that kids shouldn't be railroaded.

[Zachary The First]

I tend to agree with droog here.  My daughter is still young, and still a few years away from any serious gaming.  However, I think exposing kids early on to hack n' slash gaming not only may be not wholly appropriate, but would define gaming in a way I wouldn't want it defined for her.  Is it about killing baddies and snagging loot?  Or ist about adventure, creation, storytelling, drama, and character development?  I don't propose you try an in-depth character study with a 7-year old, but neither should the campaign center around front-line battle.  Many children already have a skewed, unrealistic ideal of battles and war that will not be served by unfortunate choices in RPing.

If you think about it, most great adventure books of children's literature have the characters trying avoid fights or violence and just come through safely.  While combat and battle may be unavoidable at times, it should not be a central tenet of children's gaming early on.

[Valamir]

While perhaps an interesting philosophical discussion to have in RPG Theory, I'd like to remind folks that this is a thread about a specific game and specific children.  Clearly the FATHER of the children is perfectly happy with his kids playing D&D complete with hacking and slashing.  Since that's HIS call to make I suggest that this tangent on whether or not kids playing D&D is appropriate be closed for this thread and taken to discussion elsewhere.

[Zachary The First]

Apologies.

I will agree that descriptive prose is the way to go with Sean.  I mean, stress how insanely deadly these enemies are.  If he walks away with superficial damage or "cinematic damage", he'll have a Die-Hard Bruce Willis vibe going on.

[droog]

While perhaps an interesting philosophical discussion to have in RPG Theory, I'd like to remind folks that this is a thread about a specific game and specific children.  Clearly the FATHER of the children is perfectly happy with his kids playing D&D complete with hacking and slashing.  Since that's HIS call to make I suggest that this tangent on whether or not kids playing D&D is appropriate be closed for this thread and taken to discussion elsewhere.

With respect, I would like to say that while I agree that the discussion could be much broader, I am still talking about this game. I'm afraid I can't remove my professional hat, and all my instincts say: 'Try to persuade Dad otherwise'.

Obviously my secret agents are a bit busy this time of year, so I can't enforce anything right now. I am, however, commenting on Gaerik's position as facilitator in this activity. I'm asking him to think about it from a certain point of view; rather than trying to give suggestions for behavioural modification--to the child, that is.

[matthijs]

Just another tip: Maybe you can make a house rule that if the fighter takes damage, if he does something cool, brave & fighter-like the very next round, he can get half his hit points back or similar?