PBEM HP Distribution

[Mike Holmes]

In this thread we were looking at the possibility of using TSOY Keys as an alternate way to meter out HPs in HQ. I came out against it, as ancillary to the system that HQ already has.

But the problem is that it still leaves me with a question of how to do HP dispensation in PBEM. Sans clear "adventure" or "session" boundaries, I still need some method to dole out HPs. What I've settled on currently is giving out one HP per scene completed. I think this is good for PBEM, because it encourages players to get on with scenes, and get to new ones. Hopefully at least.

But I had presented the players with a few other options regarding HP. Here they are:

[*]Goals - sorta like TSOY keys, what this does is simply put some mechanical effect on the goals listing on the character sheet. Basically, whenever the player has the character take some definite step towards achieving a goal (whether successful or not), they get a HP. This would include HP costs for adding goals, and a way (like Keys) to redeem them for HP.
[*]Real Time Passage - one HP per week or somesuch. Has problems, and I'm including it here just for completeness.
[*]Game Time Passage - again, not a favorite, but a possibility. Very simmy feeling in some ways.
[*]Per Post - this encourages participation. In this case, the reward would probably be some fraction like .2HP per post. Both this and the per scene option do seem to have the potential problem, in theory, that players are incentivized to post less per scene, and simply post more often. I haven't seen that actually happen, however. But it leads to proposing the next option.
[*]Per Word - .005HP per word posted or somesuch. The problem here is the accounting that's added. [/list:u]

Any comments on what seems superior here? Any other ideas besides these? I don't know that I'll change the PBEM that I'm playing in, but it's interesting to consider these.

Mike

[Christopher Weeks]

Tuning the numbers seems like it should be wholly dependent on the rate of advancement that you're looking for, but a combination of the per scene system that you're using and a goal-based thing would seem to me to generate a nice award system over all.  Is there a reason not to combine the two?

[Mike Holmes]

Tuning the numbers seems like it should be wholly dependent on the rate of advancement that you're looking for, ...

Quite, quite. The sample figures are just to give an idea of what a functional number might look like. You couldn't get away with one HP per post, I don't think, for example. I'm just saying that you can go fractional.

but a combination of the per scene system that you're using and a goal-based thing would seem to me to generate a nice award system over all.  Is there a reason not to combine the two?

No reason at all. In fact that sounds like a very attractive combination to me. That way if a player wants to go off on tangents they're still being rewarded for playing those out. But they get even more rewards playing out the goals that they've set.

Nice. Hmm. As a player in my IRC game, if I cut down the HP to like one or two per session, and included a goal mechanic there, do you think that would work?

Mike

[Christopher Weeks]

I certainly think it could work.  

I don't exactly see a problem with how you've been doing it (even with the fluctuations in amount), but if you wanted to bring our charcter-goals into the game more, it would be a way to do so.  Worth considering, I'm still figuring out how and when to actually request a scene, so that might require some more explicit discussion since to just go with the flow would be a marginalized approach.

[CCW]

Mike, was I dreaming, or did I notice you mentioning, somewhere, an idea about using a Fan-Mail-like system for HPs?

Charles Wotton

[Mike Holmes]

Ah, yes, somebody had mentioned that, and I was thinking it might be a good idea. Possibly. There are some real potential downsides. For one, unlike PTA, there is no rotation on scene framing. So characters don't get even screen time. So they might not have the same chances to earn.

But perhaps that's something that can be addressed too. It's worth considering, at least.

Mike

[Paul Albertella]

We have a system of Award categories, and all players get to nominate and vote for the other players in each category. The narrator periodically declares a kind of Award ceremony at the end of a major sequence, and encourages everyone to vote. The player with the most votes in each category then gets an extra HP.

Our current categories are:

 Best External Reference
 Best HP Spend
 Best Roleplay
 Best use of a skill
 Best use of a word
 Completely daft extra category
 Extra-curricular
 Funniest moment
 Most useful act
 Stuff of Legend

So far the awards have tended to get distributed fairly evenly, but it does offer a way to reward enthusiasm, good role-playing and amusing scenes, and gives us the opportunity to show appreciation for the other players' efforts. All sorts of goodness, basically.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmm. We're drifting a tad, I think. While I am interested in the applications of these things for FTF play and the like, I'm still really looking for what would work best for PBEM.

So the problem with your suggestions, Paul, is that the way I play it, the only typical "breaks" are between what would look to be in other games like complete games.

Or should I look for some way to put in breaks? Somebody suggested "chapters." But the problem there is that I have no idea how to angle for such a thing - I think it's actually somewhat contradictory to my current "soap opera" style approach. You know, interlinking story arcs with no real beginnings or endings. Yeah there's an overall arc in a way, but when it ends, we move on to new characters most times.

Mike

[Paul Albertella]

Hmm. We're drifting a tad, I think. While I am interested in the applications of these things for FTF play and the like, I'm still really looking for what would work best for PBEM.

Sorry, I should have been clear - this is in a PBEM. And you're quite right - finding a point at which to 'break' can be tricky. I guess it depends on the style of your game, but is the action really so relentless that you never reach a lull point? In the end, though, the award system that I outlined isn't really connected to the in-game action anyway, so you can come up with a completely arbitrary schedule for when the 'ceremony' occurs. Every 1000th post, maybe? :-)

Anyway, as to what would work best for a PBEM... well actually I think that a modified version of the award system would be a good way to go, principally because it seems like a good tool for encouraging and rewarding participation.

You can reward players for their contributions, whether they write reams and reams of delicious prose or just the occasional brief but hilarious comment. You can involve your players in the process and give them a chance to reward their peers. Plus you can set goals for the type of player involvement that you would like to see by choosing award categories appropriately, or weighting desirable categories accordingly. Or involve players in that definition process to allow them to map out the kind of play they would like to see.

[Mike Holmes]

See, again, there's a second problem really in addition to the fact that I play in PBEM. In fact this is what makes it so that the discussion here actually does relate to my FTF play as well. Basically, I don't do "adventures."

Hard to explain what I mean by this, but I don't have plots or adventures worked out. I just have stuff for the players to run into - tons of stuff. To be really clear, I don't do "party play" either. All plots that do occur are on a per character basis. So while one plot is closing for one character, another is just in the very middle of his plot.

In FTF play, the normal rule, which I think actually most people sorta ignore, is that you only get HP awards once per "adventure" at its end. Other than that, IIRC, you're supposed to get one (or some?) at the beginning of the adventure. Most people I know dump this for per session awards. That's what I do right now. Which works out fine. The action stops wherever it stops for the evening, and we just award then. In PBEM, there is never any stop to the action at all. No lulls.

Well, as I said, there are, but they're after, say, 20 sessions or more, and at that point characters tend to change over (and I award Advanced Experience, too - it's just on a whole nother level).

Does that help clarify the problem? I refer to the style as Soap Opera - there's never any beginning or end, just more evolving plots every installment.

Anyhow, I'll think about the "every 1000 posts idea" but that doesn't solve my initial problem with getting HP out there on an incremental basis.

Mike

[Kerstin Schmidt]

For incremental awards I like the HP-per-scene method you're using in your PBEM a lot.  

For me the benefits are that it's simple to remember, it keeps bookkeeping to a minimum, and most importantly: it feels organic.  PBEM can feel a bit fragmented because of those unaviodable lapses of silence between posts.  Unlike FTF there's no continuous flow of play as such, but having clear-cut scenes like you do helps a lot, and having HP awards at the end of a scene reinforces that.

Also this "organic" quality of per-scene awards means that for me as a player it's easy to get a sense of where my story currency is at.  
I know that on average I have 1HP per scene, whether to bump one contest to steer the story in another direction;  or raise one ability to signal to you what's important for me about the character or getting more so as a result of play; or simply tuck it away to save towards some future purpose (say, to join another practice).

It could be 2HP or 0.5HP instead or whatever,  my argument would stay the same. I prefer it to any sort of per-post, per-time or per-word method I think.



That's not saying anything about goal-oriented or wow-oriented awards though, either or both might be cool to have in addition to to some sort of per-scene award. I'm not too sure what exactly it is you want to achieve with them though, so it's hard for me to come up with ideas.  
(I love PTA's fan mail system but as you've said above, cutting it out of its environment and replanting it into HQ mechanics might not work too well.)

What is it you'd like to encourage specifically, can you say? Is it player involvement as such, players being proactive, players making cool moments, players getting characters into interesting trouble or what?

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Hard to explain what I mean by this, but I don't have plots or adventures worked out. I just have stuff for the players to run into - tons of stuff. To be really clear, I don't do "party play" either. All plots that do occur are on a per character basis. So while one plot is closing for one character, another is just in the very middle of his plot.

Just to clarify further, for people who play differently and may have different expectations.  

Each of the four PCs in this game has their own story and their own scenes. We've been playing for how long? a couple of months?  And there hasn't been a single scene with two PCs in it, in fact, none of the PCs have even met another PC.  

We can't even be sure that we're entirely on the same timeline yet - sure, there is the upcoming fete at Greensward, which all the PCs are aware of (and which most players seem to be steering towards to some extent), but how much time each PC has left until the fete starts differs, or at least that is my impression.  

This is way cool if you ask me, but it means that (especially combined with how player involvement fluctuates in a PBEM) any sort of blanket solution, such as "HP for everyone every Monday morning" or "HP for everyone every 1000 posts", would be likely to yield slightly strange results.

[Mike Holmes]

Heh, it only occured to me today that the PCs haven't met yet. But that's illustrative. It's not my intent to keep characters apart, in fact, the backdrop is designed so that their paths will cross at some point in all likelihood. It's just that it only happens when it happens. If you will.

So, yeah, that ought to give an idea of the problem.

As far as what I'm trying to reward, well, the goal idea is, yes, a reward for playing in a proactive manner which, yes, includes getting into trouble, but generally is about moving the story forward in significant ways.

Not that I feel that you guys need a huge push in that direction - just that it might be interesting to see what would happen. And this is also hypothetical and about other games as well. Again, I'm thinking of trying this stuff out with the IRC groups, too. Reason being, I don't like HP being a "attendance" award. Even with the per scene award for PBEM play, it's actually encouraging moving the plot forward at least as much as players are informed not to drag scenes on forever unless there's a damn good reason. Basically I see HP as good motivating tools, but no reward particularly for which they're given.

The actual book suggestions about awarding them for adventure success is just so....old school. :-)

Anyhow, I'm pretty partial to rewarding pursuit of goals in some way, but the model I have right now just isn't quite right. Not sure why, tho.

Mike

[Kerstin Schmidt]

Anyhow, I'm pretty partial to rewarding pursuit of goals in some way, but the model I have right now just isn't quite right. Not sure why, tho.

What exactly is the model you mean? Rewarding steps towards goals that are on the char sheet as you've said above? And do you mean by that, goals that are actually reflected in abilities or any old goal that's written in the description part of the char sheet?  E.g. Terrikke's goal to find her father is reflected in her Worship Father relationship, but getting her own boat isn't specifically reflected anywhere in her stats (reason being, it was colour more than an actual goal for play on my part).

If it's the first (goals reflected in abilities), then how are you going to avoid doubled rewards?  You'd give an augment for the ability in the contest, and then you'd also give extra HP for doing something that allowed the player to use the augment in the first place.

If it's the second (any old goal), isn't there a danger of play becoming less focussed rather than more focussed, which is what I suspect is part of what you're after?  
Unless you use some mechanic that defines and limits goals. Like Keys. Only don't Keys sort of do what HQ abilities do anyway, namely reward players for playing towards them?  Only Keys would do it by giving story currency (HP) and abilities do it by giving augments.

Sorry to be walking in a circle.  Maybe I'm not yet seeing what you're after. Or possibly it could be that your question isn't the one you need to ask to find an answer.  Is it really goals you want to reward? Why goals? Because it means proactive, focussed play, right? Perhaps there's some other (or slightly other but similar) thing than goals to reward that would meet your requirements perfectly?

[...] moving the story forward in significant ways.

Hm, I reckon in creative writing terms that would mean introducing, building (reinforcing), or resolving conflict.  Story is conflict.  Or:  story is character.  Which amounts to the same thing because in story terms, character is conflict. When a character has resolved their conflicts (whether successfully or not), the story is done.  

Didn't Bryan already suggest a solution involving something similar when we discussed this earlier on the list?

Trying to break it down into elements, just to see whether looking at it from another angle helps:
Conflict has two component. A goal - the character wants to get something or wants something to stop. And an obstacle - something is keeping the character from getting/stopping their something.

For instance, Shay insists to stay in the forbidden zone in Shaal's temple to inspect the mysterious ceiling stone more closely, hears voices from the stone but then is spotted by the priest.  
Goal:  learn more about the stone.  Obstacle: the church of Shaal doesn't want Shay there. To introduce a conflict, the player might frame the scene with the stone in the temple ceiling and state goal and obstacle.
To build the conflict, the player would then frame scenes involving stones and the church of Shaal. To resolve the conflict, the player might push to get on the Shaal's good side, to get the stone the heck out of there, or might end up deciding that this whole stone business isn't for Shay and might pass it on to someone else. Or something.

You might need some kind of limit on how many conflicts a player can "open up" all at once I guess, or how many they can use to get rewards, just so play doesn't scatter in random directions from scene to scene.
Or perhaps give higher rewards for progressing with existing conflict than with starting new ones (although ugh, the increased bookkeeping...).

Just a thought. Might help shake things loose.

[Mike Holmes]

What exactly is the model you mean? Rewarding steps towards goals that are on the char sheet as you've said above? And do you mean by that, goals that are actually reflected in abilities or any old goal that's written in the description part of the char sheet?  E.g. Terrikke's goal to find her father is reflected in her Worship Father relationship, but getting her own boat isn't specifically reflected anywhere in her stats (reason being, it was colour more than an actual goal for play on my part).

You're confusing the discussion that we had about "Keys" for what I'm talking about here. I don't want to do the Keys idea any more. What I'm looking at now is simply steps towards the goals written in the Goals section of the character sheet. You're allowed three to start, and then I think I'd have some buying and cashing in rules. Something like 3 HP to set another goal, and you can cash one in at any time for 3 HP if you do something against that goal.

Hm, I reckon in creative writing terms that would mean introducing, building (reinforcing), or resolving conflict.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. In fact, I could mechanically make this simple and award only when the player asks for a contest that relates to a goal. Perhaps. Hmmm.

Didn't Bryan already suggest a solution involving something similar when we discussed this earlier on the list?

Not sure.

Goal:  learn more about the stone.  Obstacle: the church of Shaal doesn't want Shay there. To introduce a conflict, the player might frame the scene with the stone in the temple ceiling and state goal and obstacle.
To build the conflict, the player would then frame scenes involving stones and the church of Shaal. To resolve the conflict, the player might push to get on the Shaal's good side, to get the stone the heck out of there, or might end up deciding that this whole stone business isn't for Shay and might pass it on to someone else. Or something.

I'm thinking that, in fact, her just staying when she was warned to go counts. That is, not so much the director stance stuff you're talking about, just having the character do things that lead to more conflict, or conflict resolution, not less.

Given the limit on goals, I think that you wouldn't have too much trouble with going off in too many directions at once. In any case, the player would control this by how many goals they had "invested" at once. Remember the character has an interest in "cashing out" goals, too (which would occur pretty much automatically if/when they are resolved).

Mike