What is the function of Kewl Powerz

[timfire]

In almost all situations I can learn the Skill, or purchase the Equipment.

The power is unique in that, as part of the SIS, there may be no way to obtain it - in fact the only way to gain a power is often via a metagame.

Powers are a manifestation of Player intent as opposed to Character intent - if you see what I mean.

Simon,

"I can learn the Skill, or purchase the Equipment...  there may be no way to obtain it - in fact the only way to gain a power is often via a metagame" contains a certain assumption about how a particular system works. It would be easy enough to create to create a system (if one does not already exist) that explicitly grants players the ability to gain "powers."

I'm also not understanding what you mean by "Powers are a manifestation of Player intent as opposed to Character intent." I'll assume for the moment that there is such a thing as "character intent," but could you elaborate on this idea?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I am very willing to buy that Abilities, Skills, Equipment, and even Cash can all fall under the "Kewl Powerz" heading.  I strongly feel it is important to denote the difference between each subset, BUT here's the kicker.  We may be closer to finding a substitute for Kewl Powerz within Kewl Powerz itself.

I, like Tim, often associate Kewl Powerz with things like Feats, Abilities, Background Options, or whatever else is not a skill and/or equipment.  But if we're looking for substitues for those, can skills, equipment, and wealth substitute?  This idea intrigues me.  I'm not sure however, if I'm saying it right.

So, I guess what I'm kind of asking is something like can the Powers of Superman and the Gadgets of James Bond serve the same function in a game?  Or rather, *do* they serve the same function?

If so, is that what we're really looking for when it comes to finding what else can function like Kewl Powerz?  If not, what do both Powers and Gadgets grant both characters and players exactly?

Peace,

-Troy

[Christoph Boeckle]

I'll attempt a definition of "kewl powerz", skills and equipment in terms of how much it takes into account the character as being an important part of the process, rather in what it looks like in SIS.

Equipment, which is external can be easily lost, and only begs to bear a label saying: "Anyone can use me to get a kewl effectz!"
How can I get social esteem from using that except through the skill I have in using/creating it?
Why do soldiers in movies often customize their weapons? So as to personnalize them, and make them more like themselves.

Which brings me to skills, which are a bit in between equipment and "kewl  powerz". They are inherent to the character, but require some external conditions to be met.
Someone good at shooting a gun needs a gun, or he won't be able to show it off.
(There's one problem with this: purely mental skills seem very close to "kewl powerz", but I'm not sure that Mathematics for example compete for the same effects).

I'll consider "kewl powerz" to be abilities inherent to the character (part of the character and his identity). As has been noted before, they can be used to reflect the character's personnality, and their evolution may be a metaphor to internal changes.
What it means for a character to have the power to fly for example, is that he will, on nearly all occasions (save kryptonite), be able to use his power. His character is reliable, more than his skills and certainly more than his equipment.
When considering such complex things as social esteem, not only success, but also the reliability of future success might be a factor for granting esteem.

Of course, in a setting in which "kewl powerz" are easily countered I wouldn't count them as anything but skills.

This all very vague and not very thoroughly thought of, but somehow there's this double aspect of symbolism (I'm powerful! look at the lightning I'm shooting out of my backside!) and great reliability in the future (I will always be able to shoot, no matter the situation), which I think "kewl powerz" are very good at portraying, thus being a good start for gathering units of social esteem.

(emphasis added)

But let's look at this. "Emotional Control" as a power, "Manipulate Emotions" as a skill, and "Hypnotic Projecter" as an item might all let you change someone's emotions. Make the Hypnotic Projector a cybernetic device hidden in your character's molars, and there's really no difference other than the "feel."

I think that's precisely an important difference. People will go a long way for the difference of "feel" in a game. The Gamist-GM might gain social esteem for giving his games the most attractive feel far around.

[chadu]

Powers are a manifestation of Player intent as opposed to Character intent - if you see what I mean.

Hmmm. I think I'd agree with that.

CU

[John Kim]

In almost all situations I can learn the Skill, or purchase the Equipment.

The power is unique in that, as part of the SIS, there may be no way to obtain it - in fact the only way to gain a power is often via a metagame.

Powers are a manifestation of Player intent as opposed to Character intent - if you see what I mean.

Well, I would agree that purely metagame methods (i.e. experience points) are usually the only way to gain power.  However, actually the same is often true of skills.  i.e. In many games, the character cannot learn new skills just by studying them.  There are also cases where the character can gain new powers by in-character action.  For example, Ars Magica provides in-character ways to research new forms, techniques, or other magical abilities.  

Furthermore, skills and even equipment can be gained and maintained by metagame means.  Notably, in Champions (i.e. the superheroic option of the HERO System) you can buy a power as being through a Focus.  But that means that metagame that object is an inherent part of your character.  If it is lost or stolen you will have a way to get it back.

[Callan S.]

I think there are a lot of directions we can go, in looking at cool powers, like social esteem, internal expression of character, etc.

But looking at what they do to play, the provoke players to take the other players to places they would never have gone to normally.

For example: Think of a D&D party without a cleric. Can you easily imagine them getting themselves into situations where it's easy to get hurt but there might not be any gain? Can you more easily imagine them leaving the dungeon well before their HP have dropped much? Can you imagine them turtling like mad?

Now add a cleric, with his kewl healing powerz.

Can they still turtle? Can they still shy away from any serious exploration?

Well, yes and no. Because I, the clerics player, will be applying social pressure: "Oh come on! Let's just get in there and see what happens...I'll heal you if you get hurt, ya big babies!"

For a whole range of reasons, I can't stand to see my powers sit idle. And because of it, I'll push the direction of the game out of everyones comfort zones and toward something far more exciting. There are hundreds of reasons that I like and want to use powers, but the effect is the same each time: I agitate for exciting stuff to happen, that normally wouldn't.

PS: I notice that with the spies in the jungle example, the spies intent revolved around leaving the jungle/leaving the conflict. I'm talking about how cool powers draw players toward conflict, instead.

[Simon Marks]

I can learn the Skill, or purchase the Equipment...  there may be no way to obtain it - in fact the only way to gain a power is often via a metagame" contains a certain assumption about how a particular system works. It would be easy enough to create to create a system (if one does not already exist) that explicitly grants players the ability to gain "powers."

I am making assumptions, based on the idea that it isn't a Skill (something you can learn) and isn't Equipment (something external you can purchase).

I believed that was the dividing line we where drawing?

The difference is that (in theory) *anyone* could have a skill, *anyone* could have the equipment - but only "The Gifted" have "Kewl Powerz"

I think we have a definition issue here.

I'm also not understanding what you mean by "Powers are a manifestation of Player intent as opposed to Character intent." I'll assume for the moment that there is such a thing as "character intent," but could you elaborate on this idea?

Umm, let me see.

There are things that happen to a character, a character has or a character wants because "it fits the genre, characters, background, whatever"

(Example, Peter Parker is a Photographer)

There are things that happen to a character, a character has or a character wants because "the player wan'ts to explore that"

(Example, Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider)

The difference between the tool used for exploration, and what is being explored?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I'd like to discuss what the Kewl Powerz do in a Gamist game for a sec and then examine how that might apply to other CA's.  In a Gamist game, several have posited that Kewl Powerz link directly to Social Esteem.  They link a player to his reward.  I can definately see that.  If Gamism is all about stepping up to risks, gambles, and strategic challenges, then Kewl Powerz (whatever they might include) are the channels a player goes through to get his reward for good game play.  They pave the road he travels and make it a smoother way to get to his destination.

If that is the case, what do Kewl Powerz in Sim and Nar games link?  In what way to they pave the road for these kinds of players?

Peace,

-Troy

[Christoph Boeckle]

In Nar games, they can facilitate adressing the premise.
For example, in Sorcerer, all which has got to do with demons is directly linked to how much power one gets in exchange for humanity.
Even if demonology is not considered a Kewl Power, similar examples could certainly be found involving them.

In Sim games, they are part of exploring the SIS. I guess players will have a direct interest in the Powerz themselves.

That's all for now.

[Brand_Robins]

Troy,

I recently wrote a bit about this in my blog, and the relevant stuff I'll post here:

In a narrativist agenda, kewl powerz can help you explore premise and do all that nifty stuff. However, they can only do it if you know why the powers matter in terms of the story and use them in those terms. What, exactly, does "With great power comes great responsiblity" mean to you? The responsibility to defend your neighborhood? To campaign for gay marriage? To kill George Bush? To take over the world so that it will be run correctly? While you can address such premises without powers, it's much harder as the average person can't shake the world the way the Authority does.

From a gamist agenda the kewl powerz are about the ability to rock the world and step on up and do it big style. However, if you are going to go about it that way you have to have powers that are specific, precise, and not all equal under all circumstances. If everything comes out the same in the end, then there is no ability to push it farther than others can and really get your game on. This can lead to powers giving social respect and player empowerment, those that can use the system bravely and assertivly get to push their character to the limit. Because many powers are inherently linked to specilizations ("fireblasts are good for this, but invisibility is good for that") and tactical choices they can make a good basis for gamist play.

From a sim agenda, there are a lot of things that kewl powerz can be about. They can, as Chad Underkoffer has pointed out, externalize the internal (though that gets into the narrativist agenda to) and widen the scope of the ways in which a character can interact with their world. You cannot pick up a tank if you don't have superstrength, and if no one has superstrength then no one can pick up a tank. So if you want tank picking up to happen in your game, you gots ta have da powerz. If you want to build a world that looks like the X-Men, you can't do it without powers. If you want to have stories like your favorite fantasy/sci-fi/comic stories the powers are inherently important to what you like about the game.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

In a narrativist agenda, kewl powerz can help you explore premise and do all that nifty stuff. However, they can only do it if you know why the powers matter in terms of the story and use them in those terms. What, exactly, does "With great power comes great responsiblity" mean to you? The responsibility to defend your neighborhood? To campaign for gay marriage? To kill George Bush? To take over the world so that it will be run correctly? While you can address such premises without powers, it's much harder as the average person can't shake the world the way the Authority does.

-Okay, but are you saying that Narrativist games are all addressing "shake the world" premises?  I doubt that you are.  There is no reason to think that Narrativist games necissarily have to address issues on such a large scale.  Nor does it appear necessary for Nar games to have super powers to address premises of a highly focussed and internal nature such as the choice between doing good or doing evil or risking one's heart or not risking one's heart in a romance.  So, what do Kewl Powerz porvide in narrativist games that has so many of them including them?  It goes beyond just an aid to addressing premise.  There is something else there.  What other feature of gameplay to they support in tandem with addressing Premise?

Peace,

-Troy

[Callan S.]

Again, kewl powerz provoke the player (the nar player in this case) to go out and seek conflict/premise.

I mean, what stops you in real life going out and choosing between good and evil? You've got bills to pay...you need to have food in the fridge, you need a whole bunch of boring crap done.

Kewl powerz will take the narrativists mind to somewhere a little more interesting than that. When you can shoot lightening out of your butt, is the first thing you think about is doing the dishes? No? Good!

Kewl powerz provide a focus for premise address, which wouldn't happen with any clarity if your thinking about how your PC has a zillion domestic chores to get through.

[Brand_Robins]

-Okay, but are you saying that Narrativist games are all addressing "shake the world" premises?

Nope. Not at all. I was, to be honest, thinking about nar based supers games in the vein of the Authority and such.

So, what do Kewl Powerz porvide in narrativist games that has so many of them including them?

Sometimes I don't know. Some of it may be tradition, or the interests of the designers. Some of it is to address theme in a particular mode. Sorcerer, for example, uses demons and horror elements to address its theme of losing humanity in a far more accessible way than a game that focuses on... I don't know, working for a cigarette company. Both could do the same thing, but Sorcerer does it through tropes of a genre we're familiar with and uses it externalize internal pressures (demons actually trying to screw you, rather than you conscious rubbing you raw).

There are other nar games that have it for sim, or thematical simulation/set up reasons. Dogs in the Vineyard, for example, can be argued to not have cool powers – as the priesthood elements are pretty much just in the realm of "things Christians (Mormons in particular) believe actually work with just a little set-dressing differentiation." But without them the whole aspect of God's chosen using God's powers to fight the enemies of God goes away. You could still do the game, and have it rock, but the priesthood/paladin element (which was a big part of the game's inspiration and the historical period's draw) would vanish fairly quickly.

With Great Power is supers, therefore super powers (though it focuses on the thematic and story elements of the powers rather than the power element of them). This ties in with the "if you want tank lifting you need tank lifting powers" in the Sim category, but with a different emphasis. In the Sim game the power is often the point of the power, and the character can be built from it: For example, John Kim* recently gave me some good examples of how powers can lead to characterization in a simmy game: such as the speedster who is always zipping about people, showing her impatient and flashy personality. In With Great Power, however, the power is secondary to the person, but the power is still important because the game wishes to address issues that you can't address without the powers. You cannot ask "What would you do with the powers of a god" for example, if you don't have the powers of a god. Nor can you ask "If you had the ability to change your neighborhood by use of powers considered dangerous or abnormal that the law will not let you use, what would you do" if you don't have dangerous and abnormal powers, and that's what games such as this delve into. It's pretty much based on the way that comics build meaning and deal with issues, which is a very deep and powerful method no matter what prudes and literary elitists say.

Not to mention that set dressing is important. There is a real way in which we often respond differently to the same structural situation presented in different clothes. If your character is a modern person with no special abilities having to face the choice to use violence to stop a robber, your (the player's and the character's) reactions will probably be different than if you are a sword and sorcery badass who lives and dies by his barbaric code of honor, and different yet if you are the Dark Knight. Human (or semi-human) behavior is largely contextual and contingent, and using different power sets and settings allows for the same premise to be addressed in different ways.

As for other nar games:  Dust Devils doesn't have them at all. Primetime Adventures doesn't really require them, nor does My Life With Master (or am I remembering wrong?). Trollbabe has them as part of genre, and to reinforce the separate yet entwined elements of troll and human that make the trollbabes necessary outsiders. TSOY certainly has them, but it was designed as a "fantasy heartbreaker" style game, and ties the magic in with the setting and themes of the various cultures and races. HeroQuest is, to a degree, founded upon its cool powers as they are the stuff of myth that forms the world and gives the background to much of the tension and premise of the setting. The Pool and Universalis don't require them, though most games I've seen with them have them because the players want them.

So what do powers add to nar games? Ease, externalization, focus on specific elements and background building, myth and world support (a semi-sim concern, yes, but when used to support premise it can be a Nar one as well), and direction. However, they aren't necessary to successful Nar games, at least those coming out of the Forge, as several Forge Nar games do fairly well without them. But in the games where they are needed, they tend to be very necessary because they have been made a core part of the premise and the way it will be addressed.


*Which I totally missed the point of at first. Sorry John.

[xenopulse]

Sorry for jumping in late here...

The difference is that (in theory) *anyone* could have a skill, *anyone* could have the equipment - but only "The Gifted" have "Kewl Powerz"

I think this point needs to be emphasized, given the topic of this thread.

What makes kewl powerz kewl is that they are extraordinary. Great stories are always about people doing extraordinary things. That doesn't have to mean they're supernatural--they do things and say things that we usually would not in similar situations. Maybe looking back we wish we did, but we didn't. A good exploration of the "extraordinary" aspect of protagonists along with the need for the protagonist to be empowered to address the conflicts of the story can be found in Donald Maass' Writing the Breakout Novel.

When we roleplay, we create stories. Now, we can worry about the underlying CA later, but protagonists are always involved. We want the protagonists to be extraordinary; that's part of what makes them protagonists. Kewl Powerz are an easy way of achieving this goal. It's much harder to be extraordinary when that has to come from your decisions alone instead of your capabilities, which is why breakout literary fiction is harder to write than genre novels with magic or supertechnology or whatever. And that might also be why I've seen several Narrativist game designers express their desire to create games without kewl powerz from here on out--because kewl powerz are the easy road, and it's much more challenging to make a great game about ordinary people doing extraordinary things.[/quote]

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Sorry for jumping in late here...

The difference is that (in theory) *anyone* could have a skill, *anyone* could have the equipment - but only "The Gifted" have "Kewl Powerz"

I think this point needs to be emphasized, given the topic of this thread.

What makes kewl powerz kewl is that they are extraordinary. Great stories are always about people doing extraordinary things. That doesn't have to mean they're supernatural--they do things and say things that we usually would not in similar situations. Maybe looking back we wish we did, but we didn't. A good exploration of the "extraordinary" aspect of protagonists along with the need for the protagonist to be empowered to address the conflicts of the story can be found in Donald Maass' Writing the Breakout Novel.

Would you be more comfortable with saying something like, equpiment grants Kewl Powerz or skills grant kewll powerz.  With things like abilities and feats being Kewl Powerz in and of themselves?  Or are you describing something different?  Like super powers?

Peace,

-Troy