What is the function of Kewl Powerz

[TonyLB]

This issue of extraordinary circumstances is one that resonates with me.  Take Inigo Montoya, for instance:  Is his kewl power that he's a great fencer?  Or is his kewl power "You killed my father"... the circumstances of his story that justify his extraordinary actions?  Which is more important to the story?  I tend toward the latter, because he is not diminished as a fascinating character by dismally losing the only sword-fight in the first two thirds of the movie.

EDIT:  But maybe I'm trying to make "kewl powerz" mean too much, attributing it like that.

[Brand_Robins]

EDIT:  But maybe I'm trying to make "kewl powerz" mean too much, attributing it like that.

I think so. If "melodramatic personality trait" is a kewl powerz, then there is gong to be very little of RPGs or movies that aren't chock full of kewl powerz all the time. Dangerous Liasons is just as power-laden as Fantastic Four, and The Borne Supremecy the same as Goldeneye.

"Function" or "story grab" aren't inherently the same as powers in the minds of most people, I'm thinking (though powers often get used to help fill those roles). But if we do want to make them the same, then the answer for why they are needed is "because without them you get Waiting for Godot, which is a nice piece of theatre, but I wouldn't want to play it."

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

This issue of extraordinary circumstances is one that resonates with me.  Take Inigo Montoya, for instance:  Is his kewl power that he's a great fencer?  Or is his kewl power "You killed my father"... the circumstances of his story that justify his extraordinary actions?  Which is more important to the story?  I tend toward the latter, because he is not diminished as a fascinating character by dismally losing the only sword-fight in the first two thirds of the movie.

EDIT:  But maybe I'm trying to make "kewl powerz" mean too much, attributing it like that.

It depends.  If "You killed my father..." gave him his second wind, his ability to sustain and ignore wounds, and his sudden ability to defeat a more skilled foe, then yes it is a Kewl Power.  Used only once to achieve the end goal of a life quest.  You could label it "Burning Hatred", you could label it "Destiny", or you could label it "You killed my father..."  The label of the mechanic isnt as imortant (to me at least) as the effect.  Do others see it that way?

Peace,

-Troy

[Callan S.]

Hey  Tony,

I'd be inclined to think "You killed my father" is a kewl power (just like SA in TROS) except its too focused. When you can, for example, jump in front of a train and stop it with your bare hands, it leads to all sorts of situation that involve such a feat. If you can only stop a train when it's to do with your dead father, this revolves just around your PC. This rather than take the whole group somewhere that's out of their comfort zone.

Well, "You killed my father" could easily take the whole group out of their comfort zone. But I think that rather than focus on being out of their zone, the group will focus on the relationship between the PC and his dead father, and what he does in the name of that.

[xenopulse]

Would you be more comfortable with saying something like, equpiment grants Kewl Powerz or skills grant kewll powerz. With things like abilities and feats being Kewl Powerz in and of themselves? Or are you describing something different? Like super powers?

I think powers, skills and equipment all can be extraordinary. Powers tend to be those that are more unique. Shooting fireballs, in our world, would be a kewl power. Being moderately good with an M16 would not. However, if you have skills so mastered that they become quasi-unique, they turn into powers. I.e., if you can use that M16 to shoot out a cigarette from 500 yards, I'd call that a kewl power. I think the line is blurry somewhere in the middle--there's a grayzone with skills--but we can often tell whether something is a kewl power or a kewl skill. And kewl equipment can also do extraordinary things, but, as someone already said, it's more something external to the character.

[Andrew Morris]

And kewl equipment can also do extraordinary things, but, as someone already said, it's more something external to the character.

Well, like almost everything, it depends on the game. Would cybernetic implants be "external to the character?" How about a magic gem that's fused into the character's body?

While others have made good points about what powers can do in different CAs, and now we're discussing exactly what constitutes powers, I think it might be more valuable to try and figure out what it is that can only be added to the game through cool powers.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Xenopulse Wrote:

I think powers, skills and equipment all can be extraordinary. Powers tend to be those that are more unique.

I think uniqueness might be a part of it perhaps.  Would you consider skills that are restricted to a certain class/race to be Kewl Powerz and/or unique enough to qualify?  Something like pick-pocket that is a thief only ability or encryption hacking for a techie in a Mechwarrior type game?

Noon Wrote:

I'd be inclined to think "You killed my father" is a kewl power (just like SA in TROS) except its too focused. When you can, for example, jump in front of a train and stop it with your bare hands, it leads to all sorts of situation that involve such a feat. If you can only stop a train when it's to do with your dead father, this revolves just around your PC. This rather than take the whole group somewhere that's out of their comfort zone.

Ah, but what if the "You killed my father..." was an ability that boosted your skills/stats/attributes when and only when you were about to resolve the character's issues with his/her dead father?  Sort of like a Destiny mechanic.  Is that a Kewl Power or instead a Plot Device?  I am very interested in your answer to that.

Brand Wrote:

"Function" or "story grab" aren't inherently the same as powers in the minds of most people

Well, if those things grant a character abilites that look like a power, walk like a power, and quack like a power, should people change their minds about things like story hooks?  Or is there still a fundamental difference?

Andrew Wrote:

While others have made good points about what powers can do in different CAs, and now we're discussing exactly what constitutes powers, I think it might be more valuable to try and figure out what it is that can only be added to the game through cool powers.

Andrew makes an awesome point.  I am very, very interested in the answers to my questions above- they will help form a good base from which to discuss the larger issue.  But what Andrew brings up in his response is where I'd like the discussion to really head.  Once we have that centered on, then I think we can intelligently talk about alternatives to Kewl Powerz.

Peace,

-Troy

[Christoph Boeckle]

What makes Kewl Powerz different from "plot devices" is who gets to trigger them. In most cases, KP are triggered by players, while PD come into play at those times the GM feels like it.
When one is trying to overcome a challenge, Kewl Powerz are more reliable.

If KP are metaphoric extensions of the character that let them participate in conflict, then there are only two things that I see that can only be added to the game through KP:
- scale (shooting lightning out of your butt will allow you to face godzilla, whereas ordinary archery does not).
- feel (it feels cooler to have KP than just have a plain old skill).

[Brand_Robins]

What makes Kewl Powerz different from "plot devices" is who gets to trigger them. In most cases, KP are triggered by players, while PD come into play at those times the GM feels like it.
When one is trying to overcome a challenge, Kewl Powerz are more reliable.

So in a game like Dogs in the Vineyard or Heroquest relationships and personality traits function as cool powers. That can make sense in some ways, especially if in HQ you have a really high personality trait that lets you alter the course of the world through use of personality. Mr. Furious vs the Lunars!

I do think in the case of Inigo we could be talking about a personality trait/relationship as a power. It let him practically come back from the dead, which is beyond the normal scope of what a really big personality trait lets people do. OTOH, de Valmont's (Dangerous Liasons) personality traits didn't let him do anything different than normal people do, so in his case it may not.

OTOH, the same definition applies to normal human level strength in a game like D&D. Is there a difference in power/not power between a magic missile and an 18 Str? Or a 12 Str? A 40 Str?

If "ability to effect the game when the player wants to" is a power, then everything that characters do on a normal basis is a power. At which point I don't know exactly what we're talking about anymore because every stat on every character sheet becomes a power -- which I'm pretty sure is not what most of us were thinking when we started down this road.

I think there needs to be some kind of "that normal human beings could not do, or could not do reliably" or else we're just using "power" to mean "any character based ability." (Or, to avoid the "what is realism" issue a "something neither I nor most people I know could/would do reliably.")

- scale (shooting lightning out of your butt will allow you to face godzilla, whereas ordinary archery does not).

The difference between Archery and Super-Archery (or lightning bolts) being the difference between a kewl powerz and a not-power? This does work in a lot of games, I think. However, games like With Great Power can collapse this definition as your "powers" (in terms of that game's mechanics -- aspect powers) and your "convictions" (which non-powered characters can have) could both let you face Godzilla.

Perhaps in WGP all abilities are essentially kewl powerz? As all of them can let you do things normal people do not normally do? Where as in GURPS a 13 in archery isn't?

- feel (it feels cooler to have KP than just have a plain old skill).

I think that one is always important. And that feel can be used to develop all manner of things in the game, from character to premise. As I said, set dressing counts.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I think I'm going to pass on the good rule of reading the whole thread before posting to it. If somebody's already said this, feel free to PM me with bitching. I blame the way RPG theory threads fill up fast with all kinds of purposeless back and forth.

You folks are obviously pretty confused about the whole kewl powerz thing. What ever gave you the notion evidenced in the last couple of pages that kewl powerz are an in-setting thing? Because it's not. There's exactly one thing that differentiates between a "kewl power" and another kind of player resource: being a discrete and qualitative resource.

Consider: in D&D, nobody would say that Strength stat, whatever the value, is a "kewl power". At least nobody outside this weird thread. However, "Great Strength" might well be a kewl power in another system that makes having great strength a matter of qualitative break with the rest of the game. My example is Vampire, which has that vampire power of... whatever it's name is, I forget. The one that increases your strength. That's a kewl power, and it is that because you get to buy it and say that you have it, while other guys do not have it. And it allows you to do stuff they can't. Which is simply not true in D&D, although both a +2 in D&D and a dot in this vampire power whose name I forget in Vampire are representations of great strength.

Now, the above description of a kewl power means that there is no kewl powerz in HQ, for example, while there most certainly is in D&D in the form of feats. More weirdly, having a camera could well be a kewl power in the right game, so what's up with that? The reason for the apparent disconnect is that kewl powerz are not just about discrete powers, they're about value systems also: the term is only used in connection to power fantasy and character-simulation games, where it's very important to have something discrete. I already gave a reason for this in the other thread: kewl powerz are a tool of character identity for these kinds of games. The camera is only a kewl power if the character identity is really about being a Cameraman, the best there is at what he does. Which is possible, but that'd be a pretty weird setting.

So in that sense talking about kewl powerz is just like talking about railroading or bangs; it's special terminology that applies only to a particular kind of game, and disappears in others. Capes, for example, as far as I know, doesn't have kewl powerz. Same for many other indie games. Notably, Sorcerer has them. And this has nothing to do with power level or whether those powers can be taken away or whatever, and everything to do with whether character identity is defined in terms of having powers or not. Exalted is purely about kewl powerz, while Sorcerer only has one important kewl power, that of summoning demons.

--

To be clear, you can think what you want. I just think that all this talk about relationships as cool powers or whatever is pretty useless for any real purpose. Using relationships or feelings or property as game currency is nothing new, but that hardly makes it a kewl power. If your game has a character class of "Rich boy", on the other hand, and other characters cannot get rich, then money can indeed be a kewl power. Certain applications of Cyberpunk fall into this category, when the suits get to use their connections and cash in ways that justify their coolness.

That's that, folks.

[Brand_Robins]

There's exactly one thing that differentiates between a "kewl power" and another kind of player resource: being a discrete and qualitative resource.

I think part of the confusion of this thread is stepping back and forth between this structural definition of "kewl powerz" and the more standard definition of "able to blow shit up by looking at it." I think that focusing on it in this way has good potential, though there are still some issues to be worked out.

Consider: in D&D, nobody would say that Strength stat, whatever the value, is a "kewl power".

That depends. If you have a strength in human ranges then probably not. However, if you have "strength of the dragon" that gives you a Str 40 then probably so. That could, however, be because it goes out of the normal ways in which Strength is gained for a character.

Now, the above description of a kewl power means that there is no kewl powerz in HQ, for example, while there most certainly is in D&D in the form of feats.

In HQ I could see it, though by the other definition there certainly are. In fact part of the "cool" factor of HQ is often defined by its ability to let you have wierd ass abilities. So if we're saying it has no cool powers, what term should we use for the setting-based abilities that certainly are cool and power-based? We obviously need terms to set the two apart, if we want to keep the differences clear.

So in that sense talking about kewl powerz is just like talking about railroading or bangs; it's special terminology that applies only to a particular kind of game, and disappears in others.

I agree with this, as you've presented the structural argument.

Capes, for example, as far as I know, doesn't have kewl powerz.

This is problematic. There are different classes of ability in Capes, those which create debt and those which don't, and those which do are labeled as "super powers" and avaliable only to certain types of characters. (Of course all types of characters are avaliable to all types of players, but the mechanical effect of the "skill" vs "power" is very solidly defined.) The generation of debt, however, is one of the things the drives the game and certainly makes some characters more interesting and versitile than others.

It's also an especially tricksy case as one of the themes of Capes is "having powers is cool" -- so once again, without some term for structural vs. setting "cool power" we're going to get into trouble.

I just think that all this talk about relationships as cool powers or whatever is pretty useless for any real purpose.

Unless relationships or personality traits are a special class of thing relegated to those who are able to use them? That is to say, unless the relationships you have are used to define who you are in terms of things you can do that others cannot?  Such as, for example, Inigo having an ability that lets him come back from the (mostly) dead while no one else can? Or Fezig having freakish strength while everyone else is spefically "normal" in terms of strength, thus making his strength a power?

[Callan S.]

Hi Troy,

Ah, but what if the "You killed my father..." was an ability that boosted your skills/stats/attributes when and only when you were about to resolve the character's issues with his/her dead father? Sort of like a Destiny mechanic. Is that a Kewl Power or instead a Plot Device? I am very interested in your answer to that.

The emphasis makes it a plot device.

Imagine a kewl power of mega wilderness survival. And imagine how the other players have to cope without wilderness skills in the wilderness. The other players will be really focused on coping with that.

Now imagine you have the power of mega wilderness survival when your about to deal with your dead dad issues.

At that point the other players could be focused on surviving in the wilderness and coping without skills there. But are they really going to focus on that stuff, when everyone could watch the melodrama of how you finally cope with your dead dad?

Man, it's too distracting! The former example leads to players (those who don't have the kewl power) having to cope with being out of their comfort zone. The latter throws that out the window...can you imagine trying to describe how you start a camp fire, when some other player is finally facing his fathers death?

Side note: There's a lot of focus in this thread as to why people love kewl powerz. I'll admit, people don't love kewl powers because they push everyone else out of their comfort zone. But I do think that is the primary function of kewl powers, none the less. They do other stuff, but in terms of shaping group play thats where they have their most significant effect.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Eero Wrote:

I already gave a reason for this in the other thread: kewl powerz are a tool of character identity for these kinds of games.

If this is true, then is not "You killed my father..." another tool of character identity just in another kind of game?  I mean if Heat Vision defines Fire-eyes the Superhero's character identity, then is that all that dissimilar to the "You killed my father..." power that defines Inigo?  I'm really interested in pursuing this train of thought because if it is indeed powers that define identity, then we may have a useful definition for them.  

Noon Wrote:

At that point the other players could be focused on surviving in the wilderness and coping without skills there. But are they really going to focus on that stuff, when everyone could watch the melodrama of how you finally cope with your dead dad?

Are you talking simultaniously? Then no.  But if all the characters were walking through the Dread Swamp, then the guy with Wilderness Survival would be of keen interest to them.  Wouldn't you agree?

Peace,

-Troy

[Eero Tuovinen]

If this is true, then is not "You killed my father..." another tool of character identity just in another kind of game?  I mean if Heat Vision defines Fire-eyes the Superhero's character identity, then is that all that dissimilar to the "You killed my father..." power that defines Inigo?  I'm really interested in pursuing this train of thought because if it is indeed powers that define identity, then we may have a useful definition for them.  

Certainly. That's what I told Tony: if you can create a context for character identity without kewl powerz, then you don't need kewl powerz. Heroquest, for example, gives characters genuine cultural identity, which is the whole point of the game. You're an Orlanthi of the cult of Issaries. This is not a kewl power, but it does define character identity, so there's no pressing need for kewl powerz. You could have them, but nobody's going to miss them (assuming you're not playing with broken individuals).

So, understand that powers defining identity are a function of a certain kind of game, not a general dictum. A game can handle powers in ways that do not make them a character identity thing. And games can handle character identity in ways that do not depend on powerz. Only when you support the kewl powerz with system you really get the phenomenon.

[Christoph Boeckle]

So in a game like Dogs in the Vineyard or Heroquest relationships and personality traits function as cool powers. That can make sense in some ways, especially if in HQ you have a really high personality trait that lets you alter the course of the world through use of personality. Mr. Furious vs the Lunars!

Never played either game, nor did I read the books, so I can't really tell.
But there's nothing I can see so far that tells me to exclude relationships and personality from possible types of Kewl Powerz.
Except maybe the relationship in the sens of a specific relationship to some particular character.
There's a difference about something that has already been set up before play through continuous (and perhaps mundane) events, and the "power" to make friends easily.
Does that sound like something worth exploring? How does it work in DitV or HQ?

(...) It let him practically come back from the dead, which is beyond the normal scope of what a really big personality trait lets people do.

I don't know the story you're talking about, but wasn't it triggered by something external to the character?
Classical KP such as flying, shooting laser, growing natural weapons, etc. all work in all cases (except when "kryptonite" pops up), and a player would know that in most cases he can count on them.
Such things as Wilderness Survival or Avenge my Dad only work when you're in wilderness or when it has directly something to do with your Dad (but then it's almost sure that you can do something).
It's a bit "triggering conditions" vs "effects". Maybe I'm far off, as Eero suggests later on.

Is there a difference in power/not power between a magic missile and an 18 Str? Or a 12 Str? A 40 Str?

In terms of character effectiveness, there surely is, but it's not necessary to go that far. There's always the "what it looks like" (the feel) and character identity.

If "ability to effect the game when the player wants to" is a power, then everything that characters do on a normal basis is a power.

I just used that criteria to distinguish between Plot Devices and Kewl Powerz. My take on other things can be found here.

I think there needs to be some kind of "that normal human beings could not do, or could not do reliably" or else we're just using "power" to mean "any character based ability."

Isn't that covered with "scale"?

(...)games like With Great Power

I haven't the slightest idea what this game looks like, so I can't delve further into that part of the analysis, sorry.

What ever gave you the notion evidenced in the last couple of pages that kewl powerz are an in-setting thing? Because it's not.

Well, to some extent it is, although your criteria seems to be more powerful.
The thing you're talking about in Vampire whose name I also forget is setting based. It's a discipline and as such is linked to your clan. It's powered with blood points, which you get by drinking blood. A pretty in-setting thing to me.
Kewl Powerz need this link to in-setting, or they're not that cool. Or else you'll have to show me how they definetly don't need to be, because it's not a straightforward thing to see.
I do agree that the opposite is not always true.

Notably, Sorcerer has them [kewl powerz]. And this has nothing to do with power level or whether those powers can be taken away or whatever, and everything to do with whether character identity is defined in terms of having powers or not.

And how has that nothing to do with power level? Isn't Sorcerer all about "how far will you go for power?" and giving you the opportunity to get that power?
I agree that reliability on a power is perhaps not so good an argument though.