[FATE]Intrinsic Extras and what I learned of them

[loki's wrangling]

I feel so stupid about this... I think I totally messed up with the intrinsic extra that one of the characters in my ongoing Fate campaign has. It looked good on paper, wasn't until actual play that I realized it might not be such a good idea. I talked to the player but he likes the extra and thinks it's integral to his character, and anyway it was my fault for not realizing the problem up front. The PC gets to keep the extra, but I might as well learn from my mistakes.

The extra in question is "extremely acute hearing," No modifying circumstances. *kicks self* That might not be such a problem in itself, except that I realized belatedly that I had to describe all sorts of sounds to the PC that might become important plot points later on, letting the player get far more mileage out of that skill rank than he would have otherwise. The guy is an excellent player but has some power-gaming tendencies, and I believe maximum efficiency was more on his mind than character integrity. And the possible loopholes with Fate, with its freeform chargen...Arrgh.

Anyway, I all but begged and wheedled him so that this ability would really only matter when the character was concentrating on his hearing, or in a tense situation. And if the PC starts "concentrating" twenty times a session, that extra is getting slapped right up to an Aspect.

Rambling self-pity aside, at least I can learn from my mistake. The line between Aspects, skills, and intrinsic extras can be blurry, but in light of my experience I think some of the elements that make a good intrinsic extra are:

1. Something that you either have or you don't, like the examples in the rulebook. Something that's simply a matter of degree (hearing, strength, sight etc.) is better off as a related skill or aspect.

2. An ability that's only used in certain situations. Talking to trees? No use, unless a) trees are around and b) they have something useful to say. Otherwise the ability is just excellent fluff. Breathing under water? You have to be underwater first.

Man, after the third session of my second campaign as a GM it seems I'm doing nothing but make mistakes right and left. *blush* At least I'm learning.

[Lord_Steelhand]

The extra in question is "extremely acute hearing," No modifying circumstances. *kicks self* That might not be such a problem in itself, except that I realized belatedly that I had to describe all sorts of sounds to the PC that might become important plot points later on...

I would read Poe's "Fall of the House of Usher" for notes on how extra sensitive senses can make life mad.  Come to think of it, "The Tell Tale Heart" is a good one as well, but that is more about digging guilt.

Also, think of ways that it can be balanced.  If the enemy knows about his ability, let them start using white noise fields, waterfalls, spells of silence (or cones thereof).  

Also, curb the tendancy to describe focused sounds (like plot relevent ones).  If he is concentrating to listen to something, describe several additional sounds as well as the one that is plot relevent.  Avoid the idea that details are always relevent if the character is seeking them out. Do not include interpretations of the sounds he hears unless he has a skill in audio analysis (or whatever).

All in all, it shouldn't be that much of a restricting factor, what is likely bugging you, from my reading of your post, is that he is leaning on it as a super useful tool.  Unless your game is centered around superheroes or supernatural talents, I would make the ability and its functions more realistic - really great hearing isn't much better in most real-world cases than normal hearing - it has a wider range of frequencies, not a "shotgun mic" effect.

Other random thoughts:

Electricity makes a hum that is barely audible.
VanGohn went crazy due to tenitis (a ringing in his ears).
People say mean things about you under their breath when they think you can't hear them.
Magic may make some sort of ultra-sonic sound that is annoying to someone who can hear it (demons chanting, souls wailing as their energy is enslaved).
The Horror genre loves the idea that just outside of normal perception are things best left unseen (or unheard).
Maybe he can hear the Things Beyond as they stomp through our daily lives (but can't see them).[/list:u]

Throw a Bang or two based on it at him.  He hears his best gal's heart flutter when she says she loves him - a possible sign of a lie.  He overhears a conversation between two people that forces him to choose between what he needs to do and stopping whatever they are planning.

I think anything that a character has as a handle is a good thing.  If the player ever fusses about how much of an impact the negative parts of his Gift are having, just remind him that he chose to accentuate that part of his character.  You are justified in exploring it with him with a different focus (but not necessarily a mean streak).

Stay with your gut and don't be afraid to stand back and Reality Check it every so often.

[Andrew Norris]

Hello,

I think we could use some more information as to what the specific problem is. I've always seen FATE as a system where abilities indicate what the player wants to be impotant, and not resources used for overcoming tactical challenges. Is this acute hearing thing really causing a problem in play?

I'm hearing in your post some sense of frustration that he's getting the power of an Aspect out of an Extra -- which, for you not FATErs, is like paying a quarter for something that usually costs a buck -- but he's still not getting the reroll and invocation abilities he'd get if he had it as an Aspect, so I don't see that there's a straight game-balance issue. Is the problem that, given an ability he can use at will, he's stopping play every few minutes to use it?

Whatever the real issue, or what you decide to do about it, I would't beat yourself up about it. These kinds of "mistakes" are typically invisible to the players.

[loki's wrangling]

Good points, my lord. :) It was in fact in the "begging, wheedling" conversation that I pointed out that acute hearing could be a hindrance as much as a benefit. The player countered by saying that the character wouldn't pay attention to most sounds, unless he started concentrating on his hearing. If I'd known that in advance I would definitely have insisted that this hearing ability be an aspect.

The specifics of the situation is this: The campaign is a low-magic fantasy with ordinary humans. The character in question (Reyn) is a thief/spy type, and the campaign began with he and the other PCs fleeing the capital when a coup d'etat took place.

I described sporadic battles throughout the city, which were more aural than visual; clash of weapons, shouted orders and defiance, swearing, screaming. I was unsure at what distance Reyn should start hearing them, how sooner he should hear the sounds than his companions, etc., all the more because I was largely winging the thing, as in "here's a dramatically appropriate moment!" In one scene there was a fight that Reyn entirely narrated to his companions by hearing(but the fight was about another PC in the party), which I felt was a good usage of the ability. But most of the time, really, I'm pretty unsure how to a) repay the investment and b) not let Reyn get all-powerful. So no, he's not disrupting the play, the issue is more mine, really.

Anyway the player seemed to have no problem with the way I was handling things--these "mistakes" are definitely more visible to the GM than the players. Our aforementioned conversation started like this:

Me: Look, I don't think your investment in this "acute hearing" extra is paying off. I'm sorry I'm handling it so badly.
The Player: What? How?
Me: *stare*

So maybe it's okay to go on the way I have, after all. :D But I'm going to start adding slightly more negatives to the equation, for the sake of flavor and reality. The "sound of magic" is a great idea, too. One of the other PCs carries a violin that has a sleeping wind-elemental inside, and summons her in times of danger. I could work something about that into the party dynamics.

By the way, I'm reading The Fall of the House of Usher online. Good stuff.

[Old_Scratch]

I think the problem might be in your perception of his ability as a problem.

There's been some great advice on how to deal with the problem, in particular the House of Usher reference.

I'd like to suggest two other sources:

1) "The Conversation" featuring Gene Hackman. An electronic surveillance expert, he uses bugs to listen in an discovers shocking information about a crime that may be committed. I'm not going to say any more, but once you've seen this film, you'll have a whole bag of tricks to pull on him

2) "A Game of Thrones". Midway through the book, one character listens in on some plotting. Stuff is hinted at and suggested, but 90% of it makes no sense at all until in hindsight.

Being able to hear very well does not mean omniscience. The player cannot hear the conspiring of people distant from him... if this is a concern, don't have the conspirators plot around him. Have them do it moments before.

Others may speak in another language, or talk in low hushed voices that aren't audible. Or have a raspy voice from damage done to the throat.

And simply hearing things does not provide clarity of offer context to the problem. "He'll be dead in days" does not mean a murder is happening, but could be a doctor telling a grieving wife that her husband is dying of cancer. All manner of fun can be had with this (see "The Conversation" above).

Or, use that spying as a way to insert the player into the plot. Another source: "The Lion in Winter", when a character hides behind curtains to listen in on a conversation. A great way to launch the character into a scene.

In truth, rather than worrying about his power ruining YOUR adventures, I think you should look at his power creating THAT PLAYER'S adventures. Overhearing conversations, being aware of things. Not only that, but as "The Fall of the House of Usher" suggests, hearing can be a problem. There are times when you don't want to hear things:

A father beating his wife or child in the room next door. A man on the streets buying a child. The creepy or disturbing conversations people have. The barmaid calling the character a creep or a skinflint behind his back... etc... etc...

You've got a wonderful opportunity here to use. I think you need to shift your perspectives a bit though on whose adventures it is you are running.

EDIT

One of the other PCs carries a violin that has a sleeping wind-elemental inside, and summons her in times of danger. I could work something about that into the party dynamics.

Yes! This is a great idea. The Elemental could whisper to that character, begging and pleading constantly to be released from its bondage, whispering promises and making claims. When he doesn't do it, the Elemental might put some sort of pitch in the violin to cause acute pain the character's hearing.

The hearing PC may hear the whispers of the dead, and in areas like graveyards be freaked out. Whilst talking to a pregnant woman, perhaps the baby fetus whispers to the PC "Don't let him hit us anymore, he might kill us next time..."

[Andrew Cooper]

One other thing to remember is that the player didn't buy inhumanly good hearing.  He just bought acute hearing.  It's like having 20/10 vision.  Nothing supernatural about it.  It won't even give him that much more than a normal character would get.  Since he just paid for an Extra and not an Aspect with multiple boxes, I'd just treat most of what he gets as a little extra color to most scenes.  Certainly use it to set up cool situations but you should be using anything and everything for that.  What I wouldn't do is vastly increase his character's effectiveness.  He paid for cool color.  Give it to him.  If he wants greater effectiveness, let him buy an Aspect, "Extremely Acute Hearing".  That's what Aspects are for.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

I guess I'm a little confused about a couple of things. "loki's wrangling," can you help me out a little?

I'm going to re-state your concern as I understand it, and you tell me whether I'm on the right track.

You have to tell me: do I have this correctly stated? If not, then say so, and the rest of this post can be ignored and we'll all move on. If I do have it right, or almost do, then I can help.

Here goes ...

I'm used to this from years of playing Champions. It's the "Wolverine's senses" effect.

Have a guy show up who is one of your villains out of costume? Wolverine senses exactly who he is, because Wolverine perceives scents, and scents don't lie.

Was that guy lying? Ah, Wolverine knows, because his senses can tell when a person's stressed.

Have a surprise attack? Wolverine's not surprised by it, because Wolverine senses the merest snap of a twig, or better, the unusual silence that precedes an ambush.

Is something going on nearby? Wolverine knows all about it, because Wolverine can hear it all, and tell how far away it is, and how many bulkheads are in between. And so on.

Note that Wolverine's senses operate in three distinct ways, as I tried to illustrate above:

a) Prior to an event
b) During an event or interaction (i.e. resolving a conflict)
c) After an event, retroactively stating what the senses "would" have done and negating what you have established

There really won't be any way to make this "acute hearing" enjoyable for you. It's basically turned the player into a co-GM ... and not only that, a co-GM with a clear investment in a given character's importance, positioning into scenes, and even possibly how his resolutions are handled.

Think about it. What if such a person were the only GM? That would suck, right? His NPC would be the center of everything. You have managed to find a player who is doing something people that hate when a GM does it - and sure enough, you as fellow participant are not finding it fun when anyone does it.

Again, let me know whether I'm on the right track.

Best,
Ron

[loki's wrangling]

There really won't be any way to make this "acute hearing" enjoyable for you. It's basically turned the player into a co-GM ... and not only that, a co-GM with a clear investment in a given character's importance, positioning into scenes, and even possibly how his resolutions are handled.

Ouch. You're on the right track. Yes, that is how I feel. I just hope that won't be the way it actually turns out...

I'm afraid I've also gotten a little angry with the player, a good friend of mine, after that conversation. Though the posts to this thread have done wonders to alleviate it, believe me. :D Okay, partly because there are so many evil things I can do to his character, but only partly. Besides, the guy got into Fate and My Life with Master straight from AD&D and GURPS, it's no wonder he and I don't always see eye to eye when it comes to gaming.

Also, the player has the distinct meta-gaming disadvantage of not getting Fate points for the negative parts of his gift, if gift indeed it is. (After seeing these posts I'm not even sure anymore...) In-game, also, the character can't help but suffer from his acute hearing, or just get thrown into more confusion and therefore more stories. It's not a fix-all, but both flavor and story hook. I can work with this.

Keep the advice coming, if you've got any more after all the good stuff you've thrown at me. Come on, I'm daring ya! XD

[Sean]

Ron has cut to the heart of the matter with his usual penetrating insight - it's a social contract issue. Talk to your friend and sort it out.

I might point out the section of the FATE rules on intrinsic extras to him, though.

Taking it as an Aspect - useful when the player decides it is.

Taking it as an Extra - useful when the GM decides it is, plus allows the player to use other Aspects in circumstances where it might not normally be allowed (e.g. picking out some details of a conversation in a crowded room, IF he has a "Listen" or "Read Lips" or "Innuendo" - type Aspect in addition.

So by taking this as an Extra, he's basically ceding authority over its active use to you. Now, he can come back and say things like "I would have heard that...", but it's up to you whether you respect those requests. If you expect the requests to be constant and universally aimed at momentary advantage, that gets back to the social contract stuff that Ron pointed out, and so the conversation becomes once again necessary.

I find it a little disturbing that so many other responses on this thread are basically of the 'find a way to twist it around and screw him with it' variety. I don't think this is the right approach at all - you're getting sucked into the same kind of thinking, and not respecting the game rules, if you do this.

[Ron Edwards]

Sean's nailed it.

This is really key: you cannot resolve this situation from "within the rules" or in any fashion that's in-game whatsoever.

Debating about what Acute Senses "can or cannot do" is fruitless.

Coming up with "teaching-type consequences" in terms of what then happens to the character is fruitless.

This is purely and simply a Social Contract issue: who are we, why are we playing in this game together, and what are our respective roles in helping us jointly to achieve our goals.

Best,
Ron

[Andrew Norris]

It sounds like Ron's got the Social Contract issue nailed down, so I'm going to talk to particulars of the FATE rules. (Obviously that's less important, but it seems relevant.)

Investment in an Extra or Aspect in FATE isn't really about how powerful that ability is at all; it's about its importance in play. For reference, an Aspect is a defining element of the character that can be used for significant impact. An Extra is kind of a fraction of an Aspect, cheaper to purchase and providing less impact on play.

As I interpret the rules, an Extra is usually "color", but it can be invoked once per session to have a significant effect. (The example in the rulebook is Harry Potter's invisibility cloak -- it's a very powerful ability, but it comes up very rarely.) This invocation lets the character do something special, but doesn't carry Director stance level of control.

An Aspect is a larger investment, and gives corresponding more player input on play. Players can go Director Stance-y by checking off an Aspect, or spending a Fate Point. Resolving a scene through use of an Aspect would be a reasonable amount of power to give to it.

Now, let's go with the "Wolverine's Senses" issue. The player would like their ability to have a significant effect on play. By the rules, they can do that -- by invoking the Aspect (using it for the session) or spending a Fate point (a limited resource).

So they can pull a "Aha! I know he's lying" bit, but if they want to do this more than once or twice a session they need to have invested several Aspects in it. (Of course, the way the system works, I could do the same thing with any Aspect. Just because I've described the ability as broadly useful doesn't mean I can ignore the mechanical cost to invoke it.)

The way I'm reading it, he's paid a fraction of an Aspect in cost to get this ability, and wants to use it as if he'd invested several Aspects into it. Even worse, he's not limited in the number of times he can use it. He's spent one-fourth of a point on something he sees as worth infinite points in play.

So here's how I'd handle it mechanically: He buys "Extraordinary hearing" as, say, 2 Aspects. If he just happens to hear something useful, and it doesn't shape the scene, it's free. If he wants his hearing to make a significant difference in the scene, he checks off one of his uses, or spends a Fate point. If his acute hearing causes him significant inconvenience in a scene, the GM gives him a Fate point.

[Andrew Norris]

Sorry, I cross-posted with Ron. I agree with him, and my lengthy rules digression doesn't really do a good job of showing that.

My point is that this system ties player power directly to their investments (in character creation with Aspects, and during play with Fate point expenditure). These resources are scarce. Playing a game using these rules is, in a way, saying "Everyone will be given equal opportunity to shape events."

In my experience with the system, it's vital for the group to understand "If you want something to be important in play, invest in it and hoard your Fate points." Trying to nail these things down after character creation is unsupported by the system. Defining abilities by their "in-game" power, rather than the investment in them, is also unsupported by the system.

To some extent, that's true about a lot of systems -- the rules are a part of saying "This is what we're trying to accomplish, and what everyone's role in that is." If someone playing Primetime Adventures has a character trait that's defined as broadly applicable, and wants to use it constantly to shape every scene in an episode where their Screen Presence is 1, the problem would be very similar.

[loki's wrangling]

So by taking this as an Extra, he's basically ceding authority over its active use to you.

I see. And as such I decide how frequently it's used, with player input of course. The in-game problem I had with this extra is the fact that common sense would seem to dictate that 'acute hearing' should come into play much more often than, say, talking to trees or breathing underwater. I still hold that a good intrinsic extra woul have such modifying circumstances(and not give GMs massive headaches), but it's a tremendous relief to know that I don't have to micromanage sounds second by second to play this extra.

I find it a little disturbing that so many other responses on this thread are basically of the 'find a way to twist it around and screw him with it' variety.

I don't think so, necessarily. It comes back to social contract, I believe. Depends on whether player&GM decided on that extra to be a kewl power or double-edged character flavor. Knowing the player I believe he intends it to be the former and I'll play it mostly as a slight advantage, but it does have a lot of potential for character flavor and story hooks as well.

The "Game of Thrones" reference is particularly useful, since it has more than one instance where hearing all the revealing details of plots didn't help a bit in stopping them. That's a lot more interesting than an instantaneous "Eureka!" It would make tremendously good adventures if this keen-eared character heard suspicious things out of context, misinterpreted them, then dragged his companions into a wild goose chase, which chase results in completely unexpected twists. This is the stuff of classic adventure tales.

Investment in an Extra or Aspect in FATE isn't really about how powerful that ability is at all; it's about its importance in play. For reference, an Aspect is a defining element of the character that can be used for significant impact. An Extra is kind of a fraction of an Aspect, cheaper to purchase and providing less impact on play.

Investment in tandem with impact. Sometimes in astonishes me how elegantly balanced the system is.

So here's how I'd handle it mechanically: He buys "Extraordinary hearing" as, say, 2 Aspects.

If the player doesn't like the screentime his extra gets he just might have to do that.

[Callan S.]

Sean's nailed it.

This is really key: you cannot resolve this situation from "within the rules" or in any fashion that's in-game whatsoever.

Debating about what Acute Senses "can or cannot do" is fruitless.

Coming up with "teaching-type consequences" in terms of what then happens to the character is fruitless.

This is purely and simply a Social Contract issue: who are we, why are we playing in this game together, and what are our respective roles in helping us jointly to achieve our goals.

He's holding the exploration to ransom though and I wonder about the issues raised with that.
"You'd have to admit my character would hear that conversation. Come on, if you don't, your killing exploration. Is that what you want?"

Once he makes that sort of statement, he's also faces the ransom himself. If he realises what the GM is saying about working together, he has to face the compromise of (his own) exploration by his own hand, because he had such conviction about those accute hearing powers before. But to co-operate with the group, he'll have to either A: Get over the damage to his exploration or B: get over his own convictions on the power.

If he grasps the group idea, I wonder if we will see him change characters.

[Sean]

Noon, your post reminds me of something. I don't want to derail Loki's thread, but this discussion has convinced me that the whole idea of intrinsic Extras is kind of dumb, in the sense of being an artifact of a kind of play I'm not sure FATE is really all about (but keep in mind I haven't played it, though I've read it fairly carefully). I mean, if the GM wants to tell you something or give you something, he can go ahead; likewise if you want to use an Aspect, that's a big deal, and you get what you were going for with it. If you want to be able to whack the story by hearing stuff, take an Aspect; if the GM wants you to hear stuff, she'll tell you anyway. On this model the most an extra is is a 'bump' if the GM can't decide one way or the other, or a rhetorical tool for wheedling at the GM ex post facto in precisely the way Loki is worried about (but then who really wants a wheedling-enabling mechanic, except in Hackmaster?).

Well, OK, here's something for Extras to mean: they're sort of a note to the GM saying "I'd like you to keep in mind to tell me about things relating to this." I guess I think that's peripheral and unrealistic enough to the (my?) psychology of running games not really to warrant inclusion.

Maybe Mike Holmes or one of the Evilhat guys can come around and set me straight on this if I'm missing something.