[Breaking the Ice]How does it relate to the Czege Principle?

[Emily Care]

Hi all,

Thanks for raising this question, Andrew. I've thought about this issue in the past, but haven't come to any hard and fast conclusions about it. My thanks to everyone for your help in piecing this out.  

I went back to Chalk Outlines and Paul's thread to see what the specific issues were.  The mechanic with the problem in Chalk Outlines was the Concessions. A major part of the game consisted of the players framing situations that highlighted an aspect of the character (eg "keeping your mouth shut", "trusting your friends").  The characters always succeed in the actions, but how good they were at it (Lousy, Good, etc)determined how many dice were rolled, and in turn how many Concessions (complications) had to be narrated in order for the player to achieve success for the character.  All this was done by the player.  It ended up in a lot of what felt like flat, solo play for Paul's group.  

So, it seems like there were a bunch of things missing in Chalk Outlines that are present in Breaking the Ice. Fortune determining success or failure, reward by the other player, different types of event needing to be narrated for resources to be put into play, and the potential of input by the other player.  The way the narration of events occurs in Breaking the Ice it puts the players in the place of audience for each other, with feedback empowered by the resource mechanics.  I think it's very important that the dice get awarded, not automatically gained.  That creates a level of step on up in the game that is aimed at making the story one that is interesting to both players.  If there's no feedback, each player can just come up with something they like that doesn't intersect with the other player's interests.  

Having the adversity to the character not solely be provided by the other player in  BtI, creates a situation where the players are strongly encouraged to cooperate.  There is mechanical reinforcement for this (bonus dice and re-rolls are awarded for taking a suggestion from the other player). And the other interesting thing that happens in this game is that making bad things happen is actually the most fun part.  So much so that a recent player (Autumn in this thread) re-worked the game to be about the players not getting together.  

I think it comes down to what Tim & Ben pointed out. The adversity is provided on the player level, by the mechanics and by the need to elicit dice from the other player, and the dice themselves introduce enough uncertainty that the player is relieved of the feeling that they are just making it all up in a vaccuum.  

I often think of this principle as the "you can't tickle yourself" principle (try it, it's possible but hard cause you know it's coming).  It's hard to invest in something if you don't have outside input.  Play so far has made it seem like the game is appropriately ticklish, but I'll be curious to see how this issue plays out over time.

best,
Emily

[Andrew Morris]

I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying, Emily (and Tim and Ben). I can see that the "adversity" is coming from the system, though it seems a bit iffy. I'll have to try a drifted game of BtI where the Guide narrates their character and see how the experience changes.

[Emily Care]

I'll have to try a drifted game of BtI where the Guide narrates their character and see how the experience changes.

I'll be glad to hear about it.  Although, that sounds like how I would play the game as is--you may mean that the Guide narrates re-rolls as their character's responses to the active character's actions etc.  or something else that varies more.  

And, if you or others do have the in play experience of flat scenes due to how much the active player narrates, please let me know.

yrs in thanks,
Emily

edited to add:

At the moment, I think that the Czege Principle is sound (if overstated), and BtI could be a much more exciting game if the Guide had some more active form of control.

This is a great question.  Worth looking into.

[Andrew Morris]

What I'm thinking is that the Guide would narrate the result all dice rolls, not just re-rolls. I'll definitely post actual play, if it reveals anything particularly interesting.

[jaw6]

I don't have a lot to contribute here, but... It seems to me that this general question/principle would apply as well to Donjon. Which, reportedly, at least, is fun for some people to play. (I'm still talking my group into it.)