Need for Experience/Improvement

[LandonSuffered]

For a lot of folks with even a little gamism in their agenda, one of the great enjoyments in role-playing is to see their character grow from a young, inexperienced adventurer into one of the legendary characters of fiction (e.g. Conan, Gandalf, etc.); that is, into an experienced, unstoppable juggernaut of power.  I have to admit, when I first got my hands on the Epic Level Handbook for 3rd edition D&D, my inner munchkin wept with joy...and it still gives me a thrill to think about sometimes.

Of course, the thing that eventually turned me off is the realization that it's the deeds of a character, fictional or not, that makes him or her "epic" or "legendary" not cool powers or monster abilities. As my astrology teacher says:

"Having great [insert exceptional talent] + $2 buys you a cup of coffee, and not much else."

Conan begins his career as an immensely strong, fierce, and self-determined youth with iron thews and cat-like agility.  Over the course of Howard's stories the Cimmerian moves from youth to prime and then past it. His abilities don't increase much from youth to prime, and decrease afterwards, even though he continues to display the same kind of spirit and determination possessed by all mythic heroes (the last fight of Beowulf comes to mind). He certainly grows wiser, able to better direct his energy to ruling a realm instead of ruling his pirate crew...but he doesn't get a better chance to hit, a higher strength, more "feats," or whatever.

Elric of Melnibone begins his career as a sickly albino that also happens to be a sorcerer-emperor-scholar (in RPG terms, he pretty much minimized certain traits and maximized others). Over the course of his career he finds a magical weapon that gives him strength and un-surpassed swordsmanship, but otherwise his abilities stay the same.  What happens in story after story are numerous experiences that color his life and history, many tragic, all in his quest to discover more about himself and his destiny.  But at the end of his life, he's really no more powerful than he began (minus one kingdom, up one sword).

Perhaps the best recent example of a hero starting with humble roots and coming to greatness is the post-modern myth of Luke Skywalker.  Luke starts as a farm boy with a mysterious arcane gift, and grows to be a wise Jedi, learning to harness his gift to perform amazing feats.  However, he did not learn these things by fighting stormtroopers (combat) or blowing up death stars (mission objectives).  He grew because he got off the rock he was living on and had some life experiences that taught him about himself.  He finds two mentors (Ben and Yoda) that give him extensive training in his powers.  He faces trials by fire (confronting Vader), and makes a journey of self-discovery (choosing Light over Dark), as well as suffering tragedy, loss, and near death (his surrogate parents dying, his teachers' deaths, his maimed hand).  Life experience is what helps him grow into the man he becomes.

For games that facilitate Narrativist play (e.g. Sorcerer), the question of "experience for improvement" has already been addressed: it's only as important as necessary, coming secondary to addressing premise and "story now."  For games intended to facilitate other creative agendas, especially what I like to call the "along for the ride" agenda, the mechanics normally used for improvement (i.e. increasing effectiveness in the game world) seem not only disingenuous, but downright unreal.

[quick note: the along for the ride agenda is what I call players with an agenda between gamist and sim but with the dial spun heavy to the sim side; they play RPGs for the escapism it affords them to get out of their own skins for awhile and don't care so much about overcoming obstacles or creating a story, but want to explore the game world using character for exploration with an increase of effectiveness to this exploration over time, either facilitated by the rules or by their own increased knowledge of the game/system]

Here are my two proposals that I think should be incorporated into any game design that features sim-heavy emphasis (these do not apply to Story Now games or video games):

a)   Increased effectiveness (i.e. Improvement) based on actual growth/life experiences, many of which are not repeatable.  Some examples: Adulthood/Rite of Passage, Blooded/1st Fight, Boon Companion/Great Friendship, (birth of your) Children, Coronation, Criminal Act, Glorious Deed, Higher Training/Mentor, Infamous Deed, Knighthood/Title Grant, (given position of) Leadership/Responsibility, Marriage/True Love, Near Death Experience, (experiencing a) New Culture, Supernatural Encounter, Tragedy/Shock/Loss, War, Wisdom of Years, Damnation, Redemption/Chosen by Higher Power.   Depending on the life experience, different degrees of increased effectiveness are achieved (some life experiences are not equal to others and/or play out in different life arenas).

b)   Decreased effectiveness based on age and possibly wear and tear ("it's not the years, it's the mileage" syndrome)...and I'm talking more than just an age table that reduces abilities when you get to a certain plateau.  I'm thinking in terms of:  you hit a certain experience level (say "Level 14" or so in a D20 game) and you start going down in effectiveness with every new increase of level.  Once you've gotten beaten up enough, its time to move over and let the younger generation start going off on the wild quests...the more "experience points" you accumulate, the worse your abilities get, even though you might still be gathering treasure, prestige, or whatever is the reward system of your particular game world.  But there should be a peak of effectiveness and a downward slide to encourage the retirement of characters so often hinted at in game texts.

I would really appreciate feedback on these two ideas: do you see merit in them? Have they been done in other games?  I know that there have been other discussions on the Forge regarding reward/improvement, so if this is not new, please post a thread for my perusal.  Thanks, folks.

Post Script:  the closest thing to Proposal A I've seen is the Experience die coupled with a drama mechanic in Over The Edge.  I'm looking for something a little more specific, akin to a Life Path that occurs in gameplay as opposed to at character creation.  Thanks again.

[Nogusielkt]

Of course, the thing that eventually turned me off is the realization that it's the deeds of a character, fictional or not, that makes him or her "epic" or "legendary" not cool powers or monster abilities. As my astrology teacher says:

Perhaps the best recent example of a hero starting with humble roots and coming to greatness is the post-modern myth of Luke Skywalker.  Luke starts as a farm boy with a mysterious arcane gift, and grows to be a wise Jedi, learning to harness his gift to perform amazing feats.  However, he did not learn these things by fighting stormtroopers (combat) or blowing up death stars (mission objectives).  He grew because he got off the rock he was living on and had some life experiences that taught him about himself.  He finds two mentors (Ben and Yoda) that give him extensive training in his powers.  He faces trials by fire (confronting Vader), and makes a journey of self-discovery (choosing Light over Dark), as well as suffering tragedy, loss, and near death (his surrogate parents dying, his teachers' deaths, his maimed hand).  Life experience is what helps him grow into the man he becomes.

Yes, but it is the "cool powers" that let him perform those deeds.  Conan was legendary because of the things he did, but part of that is the realization that Bob the bumarian over there couldn't have done the same thing... after all, he was built like a string bean.

Luke Skywalker is perhaps the only example you gave where I would disagree.  He did not learn by fighting stormtroopers, but he did learn through training.  He trained with that little ball that flew around and shot at him, he trained with Yoda trying to lift the spaceship, he did other training that wasn't even shown.  However, I must say that although he was already at a level beyond stormtroopers, you cannot disagree that fighting with live human opponents with a power you aren't sure of yourself couldn't have diminished his powers.  I'm sure if you spent a little bit of time thinking about it you could find a hero that was a wimp to start with and battled his way to power.  Even if you have to look at anime like Dragonball or Naruto.  The point still comes back to characters not being legendary without legendary powers.

[Sean]

I was thinking about this.

Basically, this is a totally optional part of an RPG.

An RPG for one-shots doesn't need it at all. Such RPGs can be really good games too: Mountain Witch and Great Ork Gods are two local ones that came to mind.

Games that are going to be played for a while in a non-episodic, or partly non-episodic way, need something to make the sessions more than just a sequence of episodes. Experience for Improvement is one way to do that, and can be a good one in some contexts. But only some. Raising Scale (Trollbabe), sharpening the moral questions posed by play (Dogs), and a lot of other things are viable options here. One of the many key new areas of design that keeps me reading the Forge!

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I suggest considering that role-playing does require reward for the participants. Improved character effectiveness is only one type of reward. You've done a great job of laying out some of the issues that flow from that point.

One of which might be that, in a classic case of tail/dog, many folks make the mistake of thinking that taking out the improvement factor necessarily means taking out any sort of reward.

As a secondary point, I also suggest that Elric and Conan might be better considered in terms of the order of the stories being written, rather than the order of the character's life as reconstructed once the stories were done. I think this supports your mini-essay, rather than challenges it. I especially like your points about Luke Skywalker.

Best,
Ron

[LandonSuffered]

Ron,

If we're discussing a game that is designed to facilitate a mainly Sim agenda, it appears that the only reward possible is one of increased effectiveness to allow greater exploration of the game world.

Unless...we're talking about a reward of simply increased exploration?  Like accomplishing a certain goal allows one a new avenue of exploration? 

So marrying into nobility gives you a chance to explore/experience courtly life?
Saving the troll babe (not Trollbabe!) makes you an honorary member of the troll tribe?
Retrieving the wizard's crystal gets you a trip on his flying ship?

Hmmm...there's possibility there; I'd guess you'd have to define the boundaries of what can be explored so that you can delineate what the rewards actually get for you. Tricky...and requiring a pretty darn specific setting from my point of view, something I'm not entirely fond of (I'm a DM, I create worlds, dammit! No limits!).

Otherwise, I'm not sure what other rewards are suggested for a Sim-heavy game.  Story Now games, sure...non-improvement rewards provide increased opportunity to narrate/tell the story (plenty of examples on the Forge). 

***[a little later]***

I went back and re-read Ron's essay Simulationism: the Right to Dream to see what was stated about reward mechanics.  THe only thing briefly mentioned was regarding character improvement.  Ron, if you were hinting at something in your earlier reply (re: rewards not necessarily tied to improvement) then clue me in, 'cause I missed it!

Thanks, folks.

[Larry L.]

Jonathan,

While these days I've come around to the opinion that games that make you slag through dozens of sessions just to "become" the character you really wanted to be in the first place are a drag, I do think yours is an interesting take on level-based progression.

So instead of, "Your character becomes more effective as you play longer," (i.e. reward) it becomes, "Here is a pre-scripted lifepath of your character's destiny." At level 1 you're an unskilled kid, at level 3 you get married, at level 8 you overcome a lifelong personal conflict, at level 12 you are the great hero of your people, at level 17 you return to your home. (Heh, kinda like the boardgame Life.) Oddly, I think a lot of players of traditional games would balk at this sort of predetermined progression.

I've always wondered about the set of assumptions about a 1st-level character's background in D&D specifically. In older editions, a level 1 fighter was called a "Veteran," implying that he was some nobody who got drafted, and now the war is over and his only talent in life is fighting, so now he adventures. (Weird psychic manifestation of Vietnam?) For some reason, you had to get to level 10 to become a lord, which doesn't jibe with my understanding of feudal nepotism.

[Silmenume]

Hey Jonathan,

Ron,

If we're discussing a game that is designed to facilitate a mainly Sim agenda, it appears that the only reward possible is one of increased effectiveness to allow greater exploration of the game world.

Unless...we're talking about a reward of simply increased exploration? Like accomplishing a certain goal allows one a new avenue of exploration?

So marrying into nobility gives you a chance to explore/experience courtly life?
Saving the troll babe (not Trollbabe!) makes you an honorary member of the troll tribe?
Retrieving the wizard's crystal gets you a trip on his flying ship?

That type of "reward" is very much a central part of the game I play in.  Though I would say it feels more like a logical extension of the previous activities/actions than a discrete act, i.e. it is not something like, "Good work wooing that princess and marrying into her rich and influential family!  OK.  Put 'Related to influential family' on your sheet at rank 6 and here's 1000XP's."  Yet we do reward effective play with increased effectives – at the time of execution.  Thus if a player was trying to work his way into an influential family that is beyond his "station," then the player would be rewarded for his individual efforts throughout the process.  I'm not sure how to describe it effectively – but instead of saying, "I have etiquette at rank 8 so I talk my way past the Lord's door keeper," we play such that a "rank 8 in etiquette" means that the players has the history/justification to play his character as very smooth and in that process defines through concrete acts what etiquette actually is during play – and THAT is really cool!  Thus getting checks in a skill (increases in a skill) is more of a sign of play skill than a game mechanic to be employed as such.  It allows us as players to pull more of the stops out!  What does that mean?  Now we can go out and research in the real world how something like etiquette or tracking or herbalism works and bring it in game.

Hmmmm... hadn't really thought about it that way before but it does explain much in my game at least...

But as far as other rewards go the GM gives out player ratings at the end of the night.  Directly this is a discount to the next level.  Indirectly this is a measure of effective play so when a new Character is created more is given.  (We play a folio of Characters so we are fairly often making up new Characters.)  Also the best player of the night gets a star.  Once a player earns 10 stars they are entitled to certain rights at the table.  The first of which is the issuance of a special folder for your Characters.  Second includes the entitlement to be invited to every game.  Third is voting rights at the table.  Forth stars can be traded in for "special characters."  For enough stars one could play a famous NPC from the books – FREX.  Every couple of years the GM throws a dinner and an "academy awards" show for best categories of play with trophies or plaques and such.

I hope this is some useful food for thought.

[LandonSuffered]

Silmenume:  that is some useful "food for thought." Frankly, one thing I had never considered was out-of-game Rewards for in-game actions...probably because out-of-game rewards always seem to be subject to negotiation by specific play groups.  However, it reminds me a lot of things in the past that have piqued my interest: for example, TROS's suggestion that the GM supplies the venue and the players supply the pizza, or even the Violence RPG "experience system" where you gain experience by sending the game creator cold hard cash.  I always thought that Amber's character generation process, that allowed players to do out-of-game "work" in exchange for bonus points, was a cool idea.  Your group's "gold star" reward system is quite interesting...especially compared to White Wolf's "bonus XP for good role-playing" award.

BTW: what game do you play?  It looks like there may be some house rules involved by I'm interested in knowing the basic system.

Larry:  I apologize if I implied that there was a pre-determined type of progression; that was not my intent (I'd balk at an RPG as scripted as Life, myself!).

The different Life Experiences I suggested are not experience levels; they are experiences that can happen at any time during the course of game play. ONE idea I was kicking around is this:

At the end of a particular adventure, once the characters have had the opportunity to rest and reflect, the GM asks the players what new life experiences they feel they've had. This represents the characters absorbing the new experiences into their psyches, growing and changing because of them. Each player names a few experiences from a Big List (like the one I first posted) and the GM is arbiter of whether or not an experience is awarded...if the character treated a particular event as "no great shakes," then probably it was not an important enough experience to cause character growth.  There'd be a cap depending on the length of adventure: 1-2 for an evening's play, 3-5 for an adventure drawn out over multiple sessions.

Example (from LOTR): Eowyn's "adventuring career" begins shortly after meeting the companions of the Fellowship.  After watching Gandalf rid her uncle of Saruman's magic and turn out the evil Wormtongue, the player decides her character falls in love with Aragorn, whose skill and kingly bearing she admires. Later rejected in her love, she dons a disguise and rides to war with her fellow Rohirrim. Eowyn sees her uncle fall in battle with the Lord of the Nazgul, but manages to kill his beast and defeat the wraith on the field of battle, despite being sorely wounded. Later, recovering in Gondor's hall of healing, the character meets the Lord Faramir and a relationship kindles between them.

The player controlling Eowyn discusses the adventure with the GM and they agree that her character may be awarded the following Life Experiences: Blooded (for her fight with Nazgul), Supernatural Encounter (again regarding the Nazgul), and 1st War (for her part in the Battle of Pellinore Fields). The player also wants to receive the True Love life experience (for her infatuation with Aragorn or her sparks with Faramir) and the Near Death experience for her poisoning by the Nazgul but the GM refuses: for one thing, she has already received 3 life events for a two session adventure; also, her inability to decide on which lover meets the True Love event is a good sign that neither can really be considered a True Love relationship. However, as a compromise the GM allows her character the Self-Discovery/Personal Victory experience for what she learns of love, honor, and her own ability and courage.  Eowyn's player asks about the possibility of the Tragedy event for the death of her uncle, but again the GM refuses as this is already a part of her 1st War experience.

Each experience would confer with it certain in-game bonuses to effectiveness, different bonuses being given for different experiences.  There would not be a maximum total number of experiences, but after a certain number was reached, there might be a "decreased effectiveness" based on wear and tear.  Some life experiences might contribute more or less to this "wear and tear" number.

[M. J. Young]

This is something of a scattershot response.

Meriadoc Brandybuck and Peregrin Took are examples of two characters who through their experience grow from a couple of young troublemakers to knights of the realm.  (This is more clear in the books.) You could argue that they are taller because they drank the draughts of the ents, and they are knights because they offered their service to kings, but ultimately it is the sum total of all they went through that brought them to that greater level. You could set up an "experience" system that defined certain qualities of experience that were necessary to gain certain kinds of character improvement, such as going on a quest, spending a period of time with another race or nation, being held prisoner by an enemy, fighting in a war--but to do so is to limit what the characters can do to some degree. A simple point system for accomplishing difficult tasks allows the experience and the effect to be generalized. I'm not saying it's right for all games, but I think it is right for some.

Alex Rogan in The Last Starfighter is a similar example. At the beginning, even he will admit that he's just a kid from a trailer park who has some big dreams and a lot of obstacles. At the end, he's the Starfighter who saved earth and hundreds of other worlds, and is headed back to rebuild the Starfighter League.

In The Last Unicorn several of the characters improve their abilities along with their understanding during the course of the adventure, including the unicorn herself.

On the question of simulationist reward systems, have you read Applied Theory? I think it tackles that, both in isolating character improvement from reward and in suggesting some approaches to rewards in simulationism.

I hope this helps. Your ideas are interesting.

--M. J. Young

[Silmenume]

Jonathan,

BTW: what game do you play? It looks like there may be some house rules involved by I'm interested in knowing the basic system.

The game mechanics we use are homebrew - the Setting is Middle Earth 30 years before the War of the Rings and counting down!  How we employ our mechanics and when is a little peculiar.  For starters I'll just point you to a couple of Actual Play threads of mine...

• [Middle Earth - home brew] 1st day in July 4 week of play.
• [Middle Earth - home brew] - last week.
• [Middle Earth - home brew] - last week - Repost
• The Creation and Birth of a Character

This will save much space and will help keep me free derailing this thread.  If you have any further questions we can go to PM or we can start a new thread!

[Asen G]

I have to disagree here...
First of all, let me quote a Wing Chuin master. "If you want to learn to fight, you've got to fight!". Period. BTW-Conan was much more dangerous, when he was already a king, than when he was leading a pirat crew (IMO, of course). Anyway, Conan as an example of realism... hm, I don't find it the best possible option :).
Probably the best "XP system" I've ever seen is the "dark Fantasy RPG" -there were 3 separate XP stats, for what I remember. So, your character gets better at fighting, when he fights, better magician, when casting spels, and better at other task, with acquiring life expirience. Keeping tracks of it all slows the game a bit, of course. Nothing is perfect :). As the second best improvement system, I would rate TRoS.
Personally, I know I wouldn't like a never-improving character:). Agreed, you don't need an experience/improvment system when playing an one-shot session, but I prefer longer campaigns.
With respect,
Asen.
If I'm wrong, do not kick me, teach me instead! :)

[sophist]

I agree with Asen.

But I still think your idea of Life experiences works. Maybe not as a substitution for training and practise (as in CoC) but as a complement.

Also Life experiences should be reapeatable. For myself, for example I can quote four or five different Instances of "Academic undertanding" for reading certain books, meeting certain teachers or colleagues that influenced my academic carreer and broadend my horizons.

Even slaying a monster ("blooded") can be repeated. In the first experience I see that I can face the danger, the blood. Later I see the point of different tactics and of not fighting and who is a too great enemy for me.

You could even include "failure" experinces and castastrophies, as they can be as life changing as positive experiences.

[Justin Marx]

Looking over the Life Experience idea for player reward, I'm starting to see that it is brilliant to foster dramatic gameplay, while at the same time relatively realistic. However, a couple of points.

Training does make a big difference. Out-of-play training mechanics can be notoriously abused, however they do make sense. If the reward system pretends to be 'realistic', the only way to increase your dancing skill is with practice, and your only way to increase your knoweldge of Gombi culture is by spending time with them. These can be rewarded through use, or rewarded through out-of-play training, but it is tricky to get right and certainly encourages a certain type of maximising stat play.

Life Experiences are excellent though to increase personality related mechanics. The trouble is, not many games have personality mechanics that are overly useful or defining in gameplay (I like TRoS's approach however). I think any character can start out with a good sword skill - lots of training, taught by fencing masters, read lots of books. However, courage in battle is a Life Experience for sure, and that can only be gotten through dramatic play. Most formulaic fantasy stories focus around a young but unsure hero, with great talent, who learns to have belief in himself, courage, charisma etc. Where would LotR be without the homecoming of the Hobbits and how they showed their experiences? (not with much fighting, mostly through their confidence - a plague on Peter Jackson's house for cutting that chapter).

Having the player declare before a scenario opens what Life Experience they are seeking could help - are they joining the army because they are fearful for their courage (and either gain it, realise they always had it, or become even bigger cowards in the face of danger), or because they hate the enemy armies (which they then hate more, or perhaps learn to sympathise with), or because out of duty to their homeland (which may waver, or become stronger), etc. etc. The goal is stated, but the reward may be different.

The trick is to have systems that give benefits for these personality traits in gameplay. That makes drama and that makes character progression more interesting than levelling up or skilling up. I am already thinking of how to incorporate it into my game design.

[LandonSuffered]

Thanks again for the feedback folks; let me respond to a few points:

M.J.:  it's been awhile since I've read Peter S. Beagle's book (I don't even own a copy right now), so I can't speak to the characters there off-hand, but for the other examples you mentioned I can certainly provide Life Experience examples (I guess you'd call them experience Points, he!).  The Last Starfighter for example...Rogan's a kid with a gift for handling a gunstar (either by playing a lot or natural prowess or a combo), and that's all the training needed for him to get drafted into the League.  However, he's never killed real people (Blooded), never fought in the life or death fog of War, never experienced truly alien Cultures, and never been to space before...let alone accomplishing the Glorious Deed of saving the galaxy.  All of this hardens him and gives him knowledge and confidence in using his skills and talents to the best of his ability.

In real life, a person may be an adequate musician, but until they've gone on the road for awhile they can't really hone their performance chops.  On the other hand, a musician may acquire a lot of fame, fortune, and practice but without personal, off-stage life experiencs, may still be substantially immature in other areas.

You wrote:

You could set up an "experience" system that defined certain qualities of experience that were necessary to gain certain kinds of character improvement, such as going on a quest, spending a period of time with another race or nation, being held prisoner by an enemy, fighting in a war--but to do so is to limit what the characters can do to some degree.

I take this to mean that in some cases, there are intermediate steps of growth (for example, you don't spend a year in Mexico and then go from zero to fluency in Spanish in one jump).  I agree with this point, but many games make the point of only distributing "experience points" at the end of an adventure anyway. I don't think, in most cases, that it is too limiting to require a rest and reflection period for integration, though some halfway points may be necessary.

Asen:  My little hardback copy of Fantasy Wargaming from 1981 has three separate experience pools: Combat & Adventuring, Religious, and Magic. Still, for playing an "apprentice to master" kind of game, I'd prefer something like Ars Magica's rules (3rd edition's the only one I'm familiar with).

Sophist:  I did say some of the Life Experiences can be repeated.  Experiences I was originally considering for repeats included: Glorious Deeds, Higher Training/Mentor, New Culture, Self-Discovery, Supernatural Encounter, Tragedy/Shock/Loss, War (maximum of 3), and Wisdom of Years (at different age brackets).  Failures and catastrophies come under Self-Discovery and/or Tragedy/Shock/Loss and yes, they may have some negative penalties included (sometimes "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger"...and sometimes it wrecks our confidence completely!).

"Blooded" is not an experience I consider repeatable. Until a person has survived his first mortal combat, the idea of fighting (and dying!) warrants a real shift in perception.  Once you've been blooded, though, you can do a much better job of keeping your wits and using your abilities when in a fight. 

To all:  I see the merit in an improvement/reward mechanic that is incremental (accumulating clacks or points or whatever) for games that feature a premise of "start small, get better;" that is, where the game is an exploration of growth from student to journeyman to master.  However, with some few exceptions (perhaps Ars Magica with apprentices or Vampire with neonates), I think most games seek to emulate films, books, folklore and legends.  While all good stories involve protagonists that change/grow over time, I would say that few of them feature apprentices growing to masters.

Good example in film:  Luke Skywalker
Good example in book:  Taran the Assistant Pig-Keeper (from Lloyd Alexander's Pyrdain Chronicles)

Even more rare are books or films that feature a whole group of protagonists that develop from youth to adulthood.  The only one I can think of off-hand is the Harry Potter books.  Other literature/film that portays a young protagonist often has him surrounded by experienced, resourceful folks (Han Solo, Leia, Chewbaca).  And while these folks grow in terms of character, it's rare that they grow much in terms of ability.

If a game wishes to simulate literature and film, then it would do well to have an experience sytem that simulates it as well.