[7W] Looking for similarly themed games for analysis

[Justin Marx]

Hi, going from one of Mike's Standard Rants (Concept's are a Dime a Dozen) it struck me I really want to know possible answers to this question but I have never asked.

I was wondering if there are any other games (specifically non-generic adaptations, like a GURPS supplement or something... aaah hell, even if there is, can't be too picky) that have merged sci fi space opera and magic (or magic-like) themes. Specifically, using magic as an alternate technology (I am using religious magic, but the distinction is not that important).

Specifically games or settings that have merged the concepts - not Wizards in Space!, or Rifts - but where the synthesis of the two elements did not look like an ad hoc attempt at catering to fantasy and sci-fi gamers at once. Basically a synthesis, not a hybrid.

Any suggestions on what to look at would be useful. I've looked, but my knowledge base aint so big. I hope the encyclopaedic bookshelves of the posters here can help me.

Justin

[Sydney Freedberg]

The only game that comes to mind (well, besides the Dragonstar D20 setting, which I think would fall under "Wizards in Spaaace!" by your criteria) is Matt Snyder's Nine Worlds. But you can look at John Kim's staggering index of games for yourself if you want to search more exhaustively.

But: Why worry?

Since "concepts are a dime a dozen," there's almost certainly going to be a bunch of games that merge sorcery and space in cool and interesting ways. So? That doesn't stop you from coming up with a cool and interesting take of your own.

"Sci fi space opera" and "magic as an alternat[ive] technology" are two wide-open, huge concepts. The upside is that you have plenty of room to make it individual. The downside is you really need to flesh out your idea. Once you know what makes this cool for you, you can capture other people's imaginations with that coolness.

P.S.: "Religious magic" is "not that important" a distinction? Say WHAT? I suppose that's true if you mean religious magic in the D&D sense of "I have God X's name written on my character sheet and therefore choose from these spells, otherwise I never think about my religion"; but if you're imagining a civilization where supernatural power flows, unquestionably and obviously, from someone's relationship with a divine source that has clear ideas of right and wrong, that makes for a tremendously different universe from one where power comes from being smart, or rich, or whatever.

[Justin Marx]

Sydney,

I am aware of how important concept and setting is to my own work, I was downplaying my own aesthetic because I was trying to cast as wide a net as possible in order to research some ways of doing things. I am not worried about duplication (uniqueness being virtually impossible to achieve anyway). I am not anxious about this, I am interested. I have a very strong and firmly believed vision for my game but I want to know some other visions of a similar(-ish) concept, to put mine in perspective.

Thank you for the 9 Worlds link, I am checking it out presently. And I agree, this is a very wide open concept, but I have not seen many that made what I call a synthesis of magic and technology - it is either one or the other, or both together. I was interested to know if anyone else had seen.

Justin

[PlotDevice]

um... Fading Suns comes to mind. Though the magic is closer to psionics, there is a 'clerical magic' element to how it is handled thematically.

Warm regards,
Evan

[erithromycin]

Fading Suns sprang to mind quickly, but I would mention Last Unicorn Game's Dune, even if there are only a handful of copies in existence, if only for the Bene Gesserit. There's a case to be made for Gene Wolfe's The Book of The New Sun/Severian The Torturer quartet, which became a GURPS sourcebook.

Past those, there's always Spelljammer, though that's probably closer to a hybrid, as you put it.

There is the problem of Clarke's "sufficiently advanced technology", and the scientific handwaving that often characterises space opera - I've got a sense as to what you mean by magic, but what differentiates that from 'unobtainium' or 'element 88'?

I'm intrigued by what you mean by "religious magic" - if you can give a better handle on that I'd be a) interested, and b) possibly able to find fiction sources for you, if not further roleplaying games. If you're looking for concepts to help you put your ideas in perspective I submit that novels, short stories, and films, would be equally useful, at least in terms of background - they'll be no great help with mechanics, but they might give you some ideas as to what you'd like to be able to achieve within the systems. I've often found stuff that I enjoy reading to be almost as effective as a purposely written sample of play.

[Justin Marx]

My attempt to blend religious magic into technology comes through artefacts and relics. Theurgy (religious magic, or at least what I am calling it in any rate) cannot function without the equivalent of spell components (for want of a better word). However these components are fashioned, not gathered. Good theurgy requires very powerful artefacts, which cannot be made except by master craftsmen, with normal or relatively easy to get ingrediants (no unobtanium as you brilliantly put it). They make better tools, not by making them neccessarily more efficient, but by making them more like artefacts, as we know them in a real world sense - carved, inscribed, shaped, etc. Making these artefacts is a religious art - like artefacts were and are in history. Combining these in limited tandem groups creates more complicated effects. So basically, these artefacts are 'black box' components. However, only a priest, who can activate them, can get them to function. They gain this power from Gods, a real pantheon, as well as lesser spirits and the like. It is direct channeling.

I'm not sure even I fulfil my own criteria on 'synthetic', I hope the aesthetic differentiates it (and, most critically, the system which enforces the mutual action of items, divine favour and power). The aesthetic I want to evoke is the way ceremonial objects are, and have been used through history, in religion to create miracles (or shamanistic practices.... the spell component is not just a boring limitation in the setting - it IS the theurgy). Then add the mystery of space, instead of the FTL boring-ness of it where you can go anywhere and do anything with your technology. Where the empty places of space are a forbidden or haunted forest. Then make people worship it.

I don't want to glorify my own setting details, I apologise if I have done so and it was not the original point of the post. Dune has a great feel, one of my favourites, but it has been replicated a thousand times (one of the reason's I steered clear of Fading Suns was it seemed a lot like Dune). But I haven't looked at FS in depth, which I will do so presently. My girlfriend has a copy of the Book of the New Sun, will check it out also. Thanks for the heads up again.

Justin

[Andrew Cooper]

I don't want to glorify my own setting details, I apologise if I have done so and it was not the original point of the post.

Comment on this statement first...  Don't worry about glorifying your setting/game.  You're the designer.  You're supposed to be excited about your game.  If you aren't others aren't likely to be either.  Hell, just come out and say, "My games the best thing since sliced bread!"  You might have to qualify that statement some later but really... if you didn't think the game idea was cool, you wouldn't be developing it.

Next...

Strangely enough, I'm going to throw Star Wars out there as a game you should look at both the d6 version and the d20.  The Force and the Jedi are rather quasi-religious and magical in nature.  The hub of the Jedi is even called a Temple.  Not only that, the Jedi use both magic (the Force) and technology together with little problem.

Are you considering Psionics to be "magic" also?

I know it isn't a role-playing game but you should read C.S. Friedman's book (and its sequels) When True Night Falls.  It is based on magic and technology and how they can or can't work together.  It also deals with Religion and non-Religious ideas within that framework.  It might have some cool ideas for you.

[Justin Marx]

Hell, just come out and say, "My games the best thing since sliced bread!"  You might have to qualify that statement some later but really... if you didn't think the game idea was cool, you wouldn't be developing it.

Hell I do think it is a damn good game... conceptually. Thought it was structurally too, until I found the Forge one night and realised the assumptions that underlay it. Which has had me in a frenzy of activity ever since, and I'm loving every second of it.